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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 12-30-2006, 01:23 PM
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That is a fact.

One of the finest jobs I have ever judged was a 62 corvette painted with black lacquer in his back yard in open air. (A school teacher)
His first job painting and restoring, seems to me the car came in around 98 points or close to.

Don't remember how long it took him but everything was perfect from frame up. He embarrassed a lot of pro's at that vette show.

Another example would be the 34 progress were all following from Texas.

Now that I think about it, it may have been a 61? Just don't remember.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by shine
i don't remember any of these laser straight factory cars. of any kind built here in the usa. stamped metal ain't all that straight. i started painting in the 60's so i learned on these cars you speak of and they were not laser straight and slick. restorations are better left to the pros that know what they are doing. hotrods are just that. they do not have to be show quality , they only need to please the owner. i have done many over the years that were " drivers " and i'm not ashamed of them one bit. i'm not about to put 1k hrs into a daily driver nor would the customer want to pay for that. and the overspray and imperfections on restored cars is required if you want to show. how about the early tri5's ? red oxide underside with some color on the rockers oversprayed. or the vettes with raw glass bottoms. how about the early mustangs with non-painted fender bolts and a rusty spot behind the fender where it got no paint. the restoration field is way harder than custom jobs ever were.
Shine, I totally agree with you on the older cars never being straight, there were always imperfections. Even on the best fitting domestic cars from the 60's 70's and 80's there were always some degree of distortion-if it wasn't panel waves there was always a few woopdedoos near the panel edges and the fit sucked. In the mid 90's quality started coming around and some new cars were being put out that were very close to being straight with a good fit-this can be attributed to competition with the Asian cars. Nowadays you can look at new cars on the lots and find quite a few examples that are very good. In the 50's, 60's, 70's, and 80's GM, Ford, Chrysler, and AMC never produced any cars that would come close to being considered straight IMO.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 10:45 AM
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You guys must be seeing cars that had some type of amatuer bodywork. The only spots that I remember being bad from the factory was the leaded seems were the panels would come together, very poor quality. Gaps not fitting, yes I agree. But a wavy panel being stamped out to the degree of the paintjobs I have seen (some shops painting over dents, not ripples) absoloutely no way!! This is a topic that could be debated until doomsday. My experience with shows is this, for every 1500 cars you see at the big shows you may be very lucky if you can find 5 cars that will stop you dead in your tracks. Now remember I am only talking about the finish paintwork, thats it. Most of the restorations I have seen are very compatible in detail work such as chrome, interiors, chassis and engine bays. I have seen many high dollar street machines that have some of the best enginneered fabricating that was second to none, then you get to the paint work it just does not match the workmanship on the rest of the car. Have seen this so many times, that I am convinced as far as the eastern part of the country is concerned there are only a small handfull of true craftsmen left.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 12:00 PM
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I didn't read the whole post, quite a few but not all. I'll say this about the topic, I've done perfect finishes for decades. There are very VERY few customers and builders alike that can even see the difference let alone are willing to pay for it. 500hrs? Yeah on a really nice car to start with. Start hangin panels and skinin doors. Do a few body mounts and floor pans. And lets not forget the inner fenders. This is hard tedious work that's a discipline as much as a skill. There is a time where you have to stop. Step off, look at it and ask yourself what the #@!! am I doing? But if it IS your craft, your discipline, then getting there is easier. You know what and what not to do. You know what pizzed you off on the last one. You know that even though they don't know what it is they're truely seeing, they can see it. It's a subliminal effect on the mind. If you really can see it, I feel sorry for ya. You'll now enjoy cars and shows less. Become instantly critical. Pick appart every little thing in the finish that bugs you and miss an otherwise kool car.

Beyond that, the newer mat'ls sometimes just REFUSE to get that dead flat pure optic finish. Not a shine. DON'T CONFUSE THE 2! And that's a major hit to today's finishes. I've not seen the depth and resolution afforded by a perfectly surfaced lacquer finish in decades. Lacquer has been re-formulated to be more enviro friendly and since then doesn't do as it used to. It's not as hard and doesn't wear well. Also it starts at the metal. There's a large amount of good "bondo blockers" out there and no matter how good there's gonna be a tattle tale sign at some point, usually that little bit of distortion that never gets gone, regardless of how carefully and level it's been blocked.

OK, I know that's like $2.00 instead of .02 of opinion. Can ya tell I been at this a while?
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 12:32 PM
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Good stuff, an interesting point, if you look too close it will ruin it for you. I have to tell you, I DON'T look close at cars, not even remotely do I "pick them apart". I CAN, I HAVE, but I don't on a regular basis. I will show my kids a thing or two so they understand, but on a regular walk thru a show, I just don't. If one does that, as you say, one misses a lot of really cool cars and ideas that are "less than perfect".


But when I see a quarter of a million dollar car I just have to look closer to see just how good it is. I will also look closer at the cars by the "Builder of the year" that is being honored. I know that one time they had a "Hall of fame" addition display with a local custom paint legends cars. Holy crap they were rough! I never looked very close at his work in the past. But hey, there they were saying this guy was the sh&t so I had to look close. Man, it was rough, just plain rough. He sure had painted a crap load of custom jobs over the years that were all over the cars at the shows.

But usually, I just don't look close for "perfection", I look close for interesting mods, overall themes, I really like looking at the overall car, does it do something to me from across the parking lot? That is the car I want to see. All too many times, they are just....cars. When one stands out to me, that is the one I take home.

Brian
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theHIGHLANDER
I didn't read the whole post, quite a few but not all. I'll say this about the topic, I've done perfect finishes for decades. There are very VERY few customers and builders alike that can even see the difference let alone are willing to pay for it. 500hrs?
There's the problem in a nut shell...........I walk around at car shows with friends that own cars and they'll say, "boy, look at how straight this car is". They are not seeing what I see. I'll point the waves out, (some you can surf on, and they don't see it!) I get fustrated!! So when certain cars that are pretty straight beat out others that aren't, what's that saying about the hobby? The darn judges can't even see it. I'm sorry, but the bodywork is the most important part of a restoration that reflects the whole job!
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 12:52 PM
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Now, see, I don't look at it that way. It depends what the award is. If it is for best paint, that is a different story. But if the award is best custom, by God the best overall tasteful custom is the one that gets my vote.

For the REAL shows that demand the highest of quality, sure that is a little different. But at Goodguys events and stuff like that, I think it is anyones game as long as it isn't a total hack job. At a real car show where a team of judges look over a car with mirrors and white gloves, you better bet the "best" car wins, well outside of a little politics.

We don't have a show like that around here since the "Grand National" Oakland Roadster Show left to move down south. THAT was a real show with REAL standards about whos car could be shown. They took applications and you had better provide a good one or you were out of the discussion. The cars there were largely pretty darn nice. The top winner, it was a top knotch car, no playing around, they had a reputation to live up to.

I have looked those cars over pretty good, they were usually REAL nice.

Brian
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 12:58 PM
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I just googled the show and it is in Sacramento this year! Ye hoo!! I can make that, it's only a few hours away. Grand National Roadster show

Brian



Click here for judges guidelines

""What Is Perfection?"

What is the degree of difficulty in making the "perfect car?"

Are all metal finished panels correct on both sides? (or at least where the judge can see). Do all the openings - doors, trunk and hood - have the exactness of fit all around their edges? Is every panel arrow-straight? Do the reveals in the body match perfectly to the next panel? Does the chrome fit exactly, or is it mismatched at the seams? Are the custom body modifications difficult or easy to accomplish? And finally, do the modifications fit the "flow" of the vehicle?"
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 01:01 PM
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It ruins it for me if i look to close. When i look at my own cars i cant look at it as a nice car,i just look at all the imperfections no matter how small. My eyes go right to them.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 12-31-2006, 01:04 PM
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Crap, I'm an idiot. I was so excited I didn't see that it is STILL in Ponona (about 8 hours away from me) I was looking at the info for the Sacramento Autorama (click here)

Still a good show from what I have heard and I think they go by the same judging guidelines. I'll go and see.

Brian
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Old 01-01-2007, 08:01 AM
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Well at least I'm not the only one that gets "picky" about finish at shows. I went to the Det Autorama last year for the 1st time in like 4yrs. I had it in my head to just enjoy it. See the old style rods in the basement, visit pals, etc. Some real stand up cars for sure, but then the eye takes over. Couldn't help it. I can see a "lazy" or uninformed finish from100'. Can't stop myself. I spotted this nice chopped AD truck. Won't say too much cuz I don't know whose it is. The box sides had that look...that damn "cellulite" finish from a distance. As I got closer so did the doors, flats of the fenders, running boards. Oh well. Spotted a good lookin Willys gasser style. Nice dark color. Underdone at the bodylines. All around the top, ah screw it. If ya get it to reflect as well from 25-30' away as it does up close, you're in. It starts at the metal. EVERY phase of the finish needs the treatment or just forget it. This is more for the guy who can do his own because at today's rates a flawless finish on a good car to start with can exceed $20K. How many on this board can truely afford that? I'd guess not too many. How many want it? I'd guess all of em
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 01-01-2007, 08:47 AM
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the quality of paint jobs is governed by the price. it's real easy to pic and judge another mans work. i learned many years ago that those doing the lions share of the smack talk have neither the experience or talent to do better. how can i judge a job when i have no idea of what was paid or expected. as highlander said ,how many will pony up 20-25 grand for a paint job. anyone saying they do a perfect job for less are just proving the point. what about the guys who can only afford 5-6 k ? we're just suppose to run them off ? if i like the person and their car i will do a job that fits their budget if i have the space and time. do i buff the floor boards? hell no. i make the car nice and thats what the customer wanted. i do this for a living, it's not up to me to decide what they want or can afford. i cant spend 3 to 5 years working on it as many doing their own do. cudos to those guys out in the garage after work. believe me they get way more out of it than i do.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 01-01-2007, 09:10 AM
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I have a friend that has a S-10 that I painted for him. Is the paint and body work on it perfect? HELL NO!! He shows it at local shows, and always gets good comments on it. He has a good time, and is proud of it. I have to admit it is the modifications he made, more than the paint, that gets the most attention. He didn't have $20-$25 grand to spend on the paint part, but he doesn't feel bad about driving it down the road, to the shows either.

I have never seen a perfect car! They are cars afterall. You can spend tons of money and time on them, and they will still be cars. After a certain point, their $ value does not keep increasing. It's like a house in your neighborhood. If your houses are worth say $250,000, then the guy next door spends a million on his, is it worth $1,250,000? Just to him! He is happy with it, or he wouldn't spend that kind of money on it.

I too, look at cars at the shows and often think that they could have done this or that better. The fact is that they are happy with it! I have known people that bought nice rods, just to start changing things on them. None are perfect for everyone. It may be that those cars you see at the show are not perfect for you, but they may be for the owner.

Aaron
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 01-01-2007, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by shine
i learned many years ago that those doing the lions share of the smack talk have neither the experience or talent to do better.
Shine, this is where I disagree. I know people who do their own restorations, including myself who do better work than some of these painters that are charging BIG bucks. Now I'm talking about the $15,000 jobs. My gosh, if they can't get it right at that cost, give up and try another line of work....
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Old 01-01-2007, 09:44 AM
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It's sad that most here are missing the whole point.........
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