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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2005, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaway2long
Dewey-
I don't mind you challenging my thoughts. It helps hone them !

OK, here's my basis

Quote1 SSI/SSDI
Your numbers are a bit skewed. I will post a link at the bottom, for your review, after digging through the site, you will see the appropriations- Short form is this:
16% goes to Senior Citizens (includes spouses)
84% goes to blind and handicapped.
http://www.ssa.gov
http://www.ssa.gov/budget/2004bud.html#TFunds
I believe you have it backwards. Interestingly when I responded to the original post I was using the very same site you were using (the second link) to get my info. That site say:

$410,896 million goes to OASI (That's Old Age Security Insurance - retired folks) and

$77,950 goes to DI (That's Disability Insurance- blind and handicapped)


Quote:
I'm sorry, but there CAN'T be that many people that are fully incapacitated. SIX times the amount of the Senior Citizens?
You are right. There aren't. It's the other way around. Six times as many retired seniors as disabled.


Quote:
Regarding dependants receiving a check...There are NUMEROUS programs to aid them. If the parent is able to reproduce, I think they can find work.
Many disabilities come on in mid to later life, well after people have children. So the able to reproduce - able to work theory as not appropriate in a vast number of cases. And I just don't share your conclusion there are numerous programs to adequately aid the children of disabled parents.

Quote:
Quote 3 You misinterpretted me.
Yes I did misunderstand your position on that part. Sorry.

Quote:
Currently, for W/C, you have your Doc ,a W/C doc, and legal. Not a panel of 5 to 7 Docs. Seems like a lot of Docs, but I think ultimately, it will be a better determination.
I'm not that familiar with Workers Comp (I'm assuming that is your W/C reference?) But that is the case for DI. Social security also relies heavily on the "Blue Book" which was written by many panels of docs in many specialties. The idea there was to cut down of the expense of having 5-7 docs review each and every application by setting up the specific thresholds for each disease/disability which would qualify for aid. You might be right that it would be better to have a large number of docs review each case - but also a lot more expensive. I wouldn't object strongly to your position on this one.

Quote:
Quote 5 This was INTENDED as a "hurdle" for the W/C people. If you are collecting W/C, and they determine you "Fully handicapped", whereas you collect SSDI for life, it will already be determined whether you can attend a "jobshop" or not. This is simply intended to deter fraudulent or borderline claiments.
I'm getting a little confused running together the Workers Comp and Social Security Disability programs. As I understand it, they are totally different programs, totally different administrations, totally different pots of money, and totally different rules and regulations. I know nearly nothing about Workers Comp and was speaking only of SSDI.

BTW, SSDI is not for life. Cases are reviewed on a regular (usually yearly but sometimes 5 years based on the handicap) basis and benefits are terminated if the individual becomes able to work.

Quote:
My post was not intended to upset you. I feel bad for your sister-inlaw, but SHE is not the problem.
Beenaway, I know you well enough from this forum and our many PMs to know your post was never intended to be hurtful or anything other than a statement of your position on the issue. No offense taken whatsoever.

Dewey

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2005, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by willys36@aol.com
It's all moot anyway. You are correct, the vast population is totally ignorant of the magic of the time value of money. Most are screaming for SSI to be left alone so it will be. Hillary will win the next election and we will have Hillary care - 'free' health care for everyone.
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I actually don't care 'cause I have pretty well taken care of myself!
I just feel sorry for my kids and grand kids 'cause they will be living in a pretty much totally socialist society and as we saw with the Soviet Union, that is not a very happy condition for mankind to be in.
Of all of the professions that need to be regulated, the health care industry is it.

Personally, I feel that if it's left up to good old capitalism, that nobody but the wealthy will be able to afford it. That's how it is now. The health insurance I buy for my family sucks, and it doesn't pay for any basic health services, so I don't go to the doctor unless I'm ready to die. It's probably going to effect my family's health long term. I'm going to have to re-vamp my entire financial portfolio so I can afford to pay $850.00 per month for decent insurance. To me, this is outrageous. If regulation is not the answer, then what in the hell is? Leave it the way it is, where only wealthy people can get service? Baloney! Of all of the professions in the world, this one should be more noble than it is. It has become a cess pool of greed and people die because of the old bottom line. I think that doctors and medical technicians should be paid well, and very well, but who in god's green earth is worth the kind of money that they charge for medical service these days? It's ridiculous.

I think that the pharmceudical industry needs closer scrutiny, it's out of control and they are way too powerful. Why should the same drug that I get for my dog cost 10 times the amount for a human?

My daughter was born with a birth defect that has made her ineligible for my personal insurance. She is covered by a government plan otherwise she would be uninsured. I pay for the insurance, and it's dirt cheap compared to what I pay for my wife and I. The insurance is better than what I can buy.

If my insurance does not pay for something I need, then I won't get the service. I will get just receive "life stabilizing treatment" and I'll die because it's unprofitable for them to save my life.

Of course now, they can charge me a quarter million dollars and save my life, and now, with the current bankruptcy laws, they can slowly kill me as they collect the money from me after they've saved my life.

I agree, let there be more competition. Open the door back up for Canadian drugs. Who shut it anyway?

The whole deal makes me want to puke. It's kind of like the bankruptcy laws that favor the credit card companies. They should change the usery laws so they can't snare people so easily to go with these tough new bankruptcy laws.

Same goes for the medical profession. It can't be fixed, until the corruption is removed from it. Some of the big bucks should be removed from it, then the common guy could have a little more for himself.
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Old 04-25-2005, 11:17 PM
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Agreed the system is broke. One of the main culprits is the interference by government. Medicare, Medical, welfare, etc., etc., etc., all pay whatever the medical community asks, no questions asked. That drives up prices exponentially. However they fix it, we need more competition in the market place, not more government takeover and subsidies. We simply can't afford that. Wherever in the world there is socialized medicine, there are big waiting lines and bureaucrats deciding who lives and dies.
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Old 04-26-2005, 06:36 AM
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Dewy

Look for this table

"SSI BENEFICIARY AND BENEFITS OVERVIEW "

Its about 1/2 to 2/3 down the page. It won't copy right, so I will edit the pertinant stuff.


(Recipients in thousands)
Estimate 2004

Average Number of SSI Recipients

Federal Payments:

Aged 1,132
Blind and Disabled 5,577
Subtotal 6,709


Aged $293.00

Blind and Disabled $441.00


All SSI Recipients $416.00



1132 of 6709 represents the 16% I mentioned.



In retrospect, I think your right!!! This is SSI Suplemental Security Income. It look like I have some research to find out more!


WHY I REFERENCE W/C to SSDI:
When a worker is injured, he collects workmans comp. When he "Settles" his claim, he is either put back to work with :

a.) No restrictions
b.) restrictions with partial disablility and partial SSDI Insurance
c.) deemed fully disabled collecting full SSDI.



The TRULY SAD part, is that there is a SURPLUS in SS. Look at the Income/outlay tables. Its been that way since its inception. Its the Government reappropriating it from the Federal Reserve to other programs, thats the problem.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:20 AM
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAIRB
Of all of the professions that need to be regulated, the health care industry is it.

.....I think that doctors and medical technicians should be paid well, and very well, but who in god's green earth is worth the kind of money that they charge for medical service these days? It's ridiculous.

I think that the pharmceudical industry needs closer scrutiny, it's out of control and they are way too powerful. Why should the same drug that I get for my dog cost 10 times the amount for a human?

The insurance is better than what I can buy.

Open the door back up for Canadian drugs. Who shut it anyway?

The whole deal makes me want to puke. It's kind of like the bankruptcy laws that favor the credit card companies. They should change the usery laws so they can't snare people so easily to go with these tough new bankruptcy laws.

Same goes for the medical profession. It can't be fixed, until the corruption is removed from it. Some of the big bucks should be removed from it, then the common guy could have a little more for himself.
( Quote Editted for pertinent issues)


Here's my spin in things. I agree with Jeff / Willys with the exception of the governmental payments to the industry. The Government pays a set fee for each service, regardless what the Doc or hospital charges. The insurance industry (Policy holders) bears the brunt in additional charges to offset the medicare, medicaid, mandated pro-bono, etc.

The docs today are making less that they were 20 years ago. Exhorbitant Malpractice costs are the primary reason. Secondary, is Medicaid/Medicare payments are 120 to 150 days from application. When the office calls for money, which SHOULD be "Net 30", the M/C office will try to negotiate, in order to send the Doc's cash. The GOVERNMENT puts the screws to the Doc/hospitals in addition to regulating the billable costs. For US, the bill would be $200.00 , yet M/C will only pay $130.00. By the time they are done, they pay $110.00. The Docs office/ hospital will raise prices to the offset the deficit. The Insurance co will battle with the Docs office, and depending on the plan you have, you may end up paying 1/3 of it out of pocket!! My wife used to be aNurse manager in an OB/GYN office, and best friends with the office manager. For a group of 6 Docs, they paid in EXCESS OF 1 MILLION in Malpractice Insurance. They had ZERO claims against them in 15 years.

Malpractice is our nemisis
Medicaid is our nemesis
The drug companies are being sued every day. A guy wants a woody, takes a pill, has great sex, has a heart attack and SUES. Was he in good enough shape to handle the sex? Doesn't matter. Sue Viagra, and be a millionaire.

The Federal Drug Administration will not allow Canadien drugs, as they are not proven safe in US testing labs. Until they are tested, they aren't considered safe. I am not sure of the legal ramifications of intercountry lawsuits.

Remember, that EACH PERSON reacts to EACH drug differently. Its body chemistry. Now add the "diet" variables, such as a more acidic diet, that will affect each drug. Now add in the multitude of variables ,such as how many drugs there are available over the counter, prescribed drugs, sunlight, allergies,etc. Start mixing all this crap up, and you have the "meltdown" potential. Your dogs can not sue, so therfore, his medicine is cheaper, and the drug co is making TONS more money.

Research costs money. Thats added to the cost of drugs.

Docs get kickbacks on the drugs they prescribe. Believe it. I ALWAYS ask for generic. "This is the greatest...." Sorry,Doc. Give me penicillian. That works. The Medicaid recipients want the best stuff out there, because THEY don't pay for it. WE DO!! And we have to take the generic stuff.

Bankruptcy laws? Whole different topic. But why shouldn't you be responsible for your actions? If you can't pay it, don't buy it.
Would you fix a car , and not expect payment? Why expect anyone else to do their job, and not be paid? It lowers the cost to everyone in the long run. (bad debt)

One of the scarey things today, is everyone EXPECTS to have all the nice things in life, regardless of how hard they work. Take "Joe Blow" who decides he wants to work construction in the summer only, and doesn't want to work winters. Should he have all the luxuries of life? Or should he make sacrafices? Like drive a used pickup instead of an H-2? He has the income in the SUMMER to buy it, but unemployment just covers the necessities in the winter.

No one saves for emergencies. EVERY single person out there should have a MINIMUM of 1 years salary in the bank. LIQUID CASH. Can't save on your limited budget? Make some sacrafices. The kids don't NEED Playstation 300, nor do they need 4 pairs of $200.00 sneakers. Its about using YOUR judgement, and deciding whats best for your family LONG term. My wife and I wanted 4 kids. We knew we could only afford 2. Especially when it came to sending them to school. (Ay Currumba!!) That time is here, and $30K a year with no tuition aid is a killer. My daughter can't even get a job on campus, because thats reserved for low income kids. The kids going for FREE, incidently. Thats SUCKS!

Ok,enough ranting..... Anyone have any prozac?
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:38 AM
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Thanx Been, my advanced Alzheimer's made me forget the 800# gorilla of medical liability. Government involvement can ALWAYS be honestly cited as a huge reason for screwed up systems but Dr insurance is a disaster. I think the exodus from the medical field by 'overpaid' Dr.s is testimony to that out -of-control disaster. And you are incorrect, there is NOT a surplus in SSI. The balance in the SSI account is ZERO. Any excess in cash flow is instantly spent by our esteemed representatives who graciously leave IOUs in the account, to be honored at some unspecified later date by a 80%-90% tax rate on our children & grandchildren.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys36@aol.com
Oh, and cboy, I have been thinking about your contention that most people could not achieve the return on investment that I have over the years in my 401K and I think you are correct. I have done it a super secret way; I go to whatever account management company that my company signs up with (have been w/ Putnam, Vanguard and most recently Fidelity) look down the list of mutual funds they offer, split my deposits between the two or three with the biggest numbers and forget it for 5 - 20 years 'til they move to another carrier and I am forced to choose 3 more. That is WAY too complicated for the average public school grad!!
Sarcasm aside (and I do appreciate your point), over the past 60 years the market has had a compounded annual return on investment of about 10.5% per year. So if you are getting a 12% return on your personally managed 401K over those years you are beating the market and you deserve a lot of credit. The fact is most people don't come anywhere near matching the market's return. In fact (well, if you believe the sources quoted by the Motley Fool it's a fact) 3 our of every 4 professional money manager looses money to the market average year in and year out. And they are the PROFESSIONALS. So it is little wonder that the average Joe falls far short of that 10% return. Also note that I never said a 12% average annual return could never be achieved. Mathematically it is certainly possible. What I'm saying is that in reality, on average, the American investor has been achieving far under that rate of return. As a result, I think your financial projections would be more realistic if it reflected the earning an average Joe achieves rather than the earnings he might possibly achieve. Most of the projections I've seen use a more conservative 6-8% rate of return for medium risk investment and 3-4% for low risk.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
Sarcasm aside (and I do appreciate your point), over the past 60 years the market has had a compounded annual return on investment of about 10.5% per year. So if you are getting a 12% return on your personally managed 401K over those years you are beating the market and you deserve a lot of credit. The fact is most people don't come anywhere near matching the market's return. In fact (well, if you believe the sources quoted by the Motley Fool it's a fact) 3 our of every 4 professional money manager looses money to the market average year in and year out. And they are the PROFESSIONALS. So it is little wonder that the average Joe falls far short of that 10% return. Also note that I never said a 12% average annual return could never be achieved. Mathematically it is certainly possible. What I'm saying is that in reality, on average, the American investor has been achieving far under that rate of return. As a result, I think your financial projections would be more realistic if it reflected the earning an average Joe achieves rather than the earnings he might possibly achieve. Most of the projections I've seen use a more conservative 6-8% rate of return for medium risk investment and 3-4% for low risk.
Sorry about the sarcasm. My kids and I have always used zingers from movies like the Pink Panther series, Police Squad, Ace Ventura, Napoleon Dynamite, etc., whenever the opportunity arises (like when a city policeman gave a presentation to my daughter's 5th grade class and was extracting an oath from the kids; he said, "Repeat after me . . ." and she said, "after me, after me, after me, after me . . .". I was chocked up I was so proud a father!).

Yes my result has exceeded the market in general but again that wasn't my fault, believe me. I am a total loser whenever I try to play the market myself. All the credit goes to the mutual fund managers @ Putnam, Vanguard, & Fidelity. The aggressive growth funds managed by those pros should and do beat the general market by a point or two. Go to their websites and look at their various funds (which would be the type offered in the personal savings accounts in the new SSI). The more aggressive ones are well above 10%, long term. Granted they went negative during Clinton's recession but I couldn't care less. Over the 40 year period of my career, NOTHING beats the market, long term, let alone the govenment account which after 60 years and multiple $trillion invested, is @ $0.00.

And note that in the low case I posted above (the guy who starts out in a @ $20,000/yr job) was conservative. I gave him a 7.5% return on savings before retirement, 3% salary inflation (basically, inflation rate - he was barely above entry level his whole career) and he still retires w/ $1,000,000 in his retirement account. I think I used a pretty conservative and do-able case. Even if he only achieves half that performance and retires w/ $500,000, that gives him more than he gets from the government and it is his to pass on to his progeny if he so desires.

The second example where the guy hustles a little and gets a college education, gets a pretty good job, and is smarter than you and me and achieves the attainable higher 12% rate in the market retires a multi-millionaire.

Point is, ANYTHING an individual does with that money is better than what we have now with a government that has extorted 15% of his income, stolen $trillions from the resulted 'savings account' leaving it bankrupt and the average Joe with a below-poverty stipend of $1800/mo and even that will be defaulted on in the next few years unless they raise the tax rate on our children to 80%.

Last edited by willys36@aol.com; 04-26-2005 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:27 AM
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As I thought, you will get your wish - SSI will continue as-is into oblivion! See this article on the Republican 'majority'.
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:11 AM
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I dont get it, am I just catching the "spin" on the deal here.

Between the three of them they call for cutting current benefits, raising the retirement age to the death age, taxing the snot out of rich people, basing the benefit to rich people on price increases(cost of living), and basing the benefit to Joe Average on his income with a little kick for price increases. Seems to me that they only promise security for the folks that have a lesser need for it.

This stuck out like a sweaty whore in church

Quote:
Higher-paid workers would have their benefits tied to inflation, which would produce lower benefits than those generated by the current link to wages. (Wages rise more sharply than prices). Lower-paid workers--those making less than $30,000 or so--would continue to have benefits tied to wages.
Since when do wage increases exceed cost of living increases? I got a $0.25 raise this week called a cost of living raise. Every hourly employee in the company got it. That's $10 a week, I'd like to know how that, plus the $0.25 that the company doled out last year and the year before can cover the cost of living. It might cover the cost of fuel if you switch to the cheap stuff.
They must be smokin' dope up there.

Maybe it's different in other parts of the country but here the wages for average folks don't go up in proportion to prices, they fall behind ever so slightly each year. That means that I'm still screwed, if I even live long enough to qualify for SSI retirement benefits.

Did I get it right?

Larry
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Old 04-26-2005, 10:44 AM
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Haven't been on here in a few months but saw this thread today and had to reply. I am totally disabled and draw SS disability. I have good days and bad, about one good per week. I worked 45 years, paying SS each year and for app. 40 of those I worked in pain. For the first year of my disability I had to pay ALL my medical bills including medicine. No one would insure me and I did not qualify for any assistance. Damn right, I think I deserve my little disability check but would trade it with the pain to any of you for your good health. You can keep your income but don't plan on having it for long.
Jack
ps. I would also like to add that you have to be out of work (disabled) for 6 months before you can even apply for disability.

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Old 04-26-2005, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys36@aol.com
...when a city policeman gave a presentation to my daughter's 5th grade class and was extracting an oath from the kids; he said, "Repeat after me . . ." and she said, "after me, after me, after me, after me . . .". I was chocked up I was so proud a father!).
Hmmmmm, I think under all that facad you just might be a bleedin' heart liberal after all Willys. Only a Hillary Democrat would have such disrespect for law and order. (LOL...just keep in mind who started this sarcasm business.)

Well, on to the serious stuff...actually in response to your Washington Post link. I think the problem is that while SS may not be a very good option...people are VERY reluctant to make change of any sort. And they are particularly reluctant when it involves a program which has, in the past, provided the basic foundation supporting retirement for many seniors. We all know something must be done, but there is great reluctance to give up what has served many people well over the years. People are very uncomfortable with change, and I think that is what republicans are discovering when they go back home and listen to their constituents. I'm not saying that is a good thing...but it IS a powerful thing.

Repeat after me...repeat after me...repeat after me.....
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Old 04-26-2005, 02:42 PM
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Woods,
Its only 6 weeks.

Example: Women out on maternity leave, can collect 6 weeks from the time the Doc "pulls them, to up to 8 weeks after, depending on her medical conditions. Apeziotomy (sp?), etc. They're out for a minimum of 6 weeks. It does take quite a while for the checks to flow though. I don't think that is right, though.
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Old 04-26-2005, 07:28 PM
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You wish it was only 6 weeks, that may be true if you have a private policy. YOU HAVE TO BE DISABLED FOR 6 MONTHS before you can apply for US Social Security disability. If and when you are approved, you start drawing the 7th month. If you are not approved for 5 months you are paid a lump sum for the 5 months, NOTHING for the first 6 months.

Oh, and you can not collect disability for being pregnant.
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