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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aminga
...if you ... want to move back and forth you may be out of luck...
you may want to just get TWO blasters...
Great review. I'm definately a customer now. Thanks.
Can't afford TWO blasters... but maybe I can make up a temporary pot for other media from two 20 lb gas cylinders.

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Old 04-17-2008, 02:51 PM
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looks like a DIY project
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:11 AM
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What you get for $130

I just want to show everyone what you get when you send Eastwood $130 for the upgrade kit. The price seems a bit excessive. I hope someone else will start supplying them at a reasonable price.
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:45 PM
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I guess this will be my introductory post as well as a little something to add to this topic. I'm a DIY kinda guy and like to learn new things, trades, and skills. I've got a hobby polishing metals including automotive parts and whatnot. I'm not a hotrodder, i'm into the Volkswagen scene so forgive me for my shortcomings. I like to purchase old used parts that no one has any love for anymore, and I like to bring life into them and sell them for some profit for the time, energy, and material used.

This weekend I decided I would purchase a sand/soda blaster from harbor freight for 129.99, after seeing what I thought eastwood was selling the exact same one except in the color blue for 299.99. I also purchased a 50 pound bag of soda, and it worked pretty well. I blasted down a greasy used valve cover and it seemed to have done the job pretty well. Afterward, I went back on the Eastwood website and saw that the two soda blasters were not exactly identical, but Eastwood thought they could charge $300 for the near identical made in china blaster because of their own patented or soon to be patented retro kit that was applied on their version. Now I don't know how much better the retro kit would perform from the performance coming from my HF blaster right now with soda media, so now I am at a point of interest whether or not I should get the retro kit? More so, after looking a little further at the retro kit, I saw what looked to be something that I could personally make, so I googled 'make your own soda blasting retro kit' and it led me straight to this thread.

So my question now is, has this retro kit finally been patented, and will someone who has purchased this tell me if they think it is worth purchasing or am I better off trying to make my own replica based off the photos I can find on the web?

I apologize for bumping such an old thread as well.
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Old 02-16-2009, 02:48 PM
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You need to read the second page of the thread. That will answer your questions.
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:43 PM
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sorry I did read the whole post before I posted, what I meant to say was before I asked my final question was if the patent has been finalized yet or is it still open?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2009, 12:05 AM
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You could ask the fellow from Eastwood directly.

If the patent has been granted, you can obtain a copy and see just what they have done. Like I said before, patents only protect Eastwood against commercial exploitation. You or anyone can use the patent filing to duplicate the device for your own use, can tell others how to make it, but cannot make it for others. Patent law exists this way to foster innovation while protecting the commercial nature of the use of patents. You may, after duplicating the device, find a better way to do the same thing or it could inspire you to create something entirely new.

From what the fellow said, the device creates a vortex that keeps the media from caking. It's probably $20 worth of hardware and $20,000 of development. Paying $129 seems reasonable for the time and effort required to duplicate it from the patent drawings.

To better answer you original question, a buddy purchased it and it works as advertised, which is to say "like magic". I plan on purchasing one so I don't have to drive so far to use his.

But if you do track down the patent, post a link to it here.
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Old 03-31-2009, 09:21 PM
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Gosh this has been an interesting read.
Somebody asked for facts, so lets get some in the thread.

FACT{ Soda is an entirely different impact method than hard media ranging from ground glass to silica sand. Think of the old PacMan gobbling, and you have a basic idea of how soda hits. That method makes soda ideal for soft deposits, and not worth a damn for hard deposits unless you want to spend a lot of time.

FACT{ Soda operates at far lower pressures than hard medias, and far ower volumes of media per square area than conventional media.

FACT{ Soda blasting will cause yo to have a lot of problems if you get into a warranty claim with most paint manufacturers.

FACT{ Soda residue is NOT a protective film, and thinking it is or even leaving residue in place is a bad practice.

FACT{ there are a minimum of 4 grades of soda used in blasting, each has different properties and delivers differing results.

FACT{ Soda is different enough from hard media that considerable operator learning time is necessary. Generally a good media blasting operator won't transition to soda worth squat.

FACT{ Soda used in blasting is NOT the same as home baking soda in any manner beyond being chemicly the same. The granuels are far different.

FACT{ I'll refrain from commenting on Eastwood's product beyond saying I wouldn't pay 10ó for it. If it took Eastwoods more than 2 hours to figure out the eductor they need to restudy the subject.

FACT{ Soda requires absolutely DRY air, no if and or but about it. The necessity is far beyond what is delivered by anything short of a refridgerated dryer followed by a descicant dryer.

FACT{ most commercial soda machines employ vibrators to keep the soda moving from the hopper to the mixer.

FACT{ anybody with some knowledge of dry media handling eductors can build a soda blaster similar to a company I'll not mention a second time from a dry powder extinguisher in a home shop.

FACT{ there are multiple manufactures of good soda equipment that is worth the investment if you have work for the machine. Oddly they find no need to keep their mechanisms secret, and are fully aware patents are only worth how much you have to spend on lawyers defending the patent. They sell through rock solid vendors who know the media blasting business.
Some of those vendors have web sites.
http://www.milessupply.com/sandblast.htm
http://www.nortonsandblasting.com/nsbabrasives.html
http://novetas.net/
www.armex.com is the company that makes most soda product, and knows sodablasting better than anyone

FACT{ I don't like twobit hustlers selling crap product!
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009, 12:31 PM
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Thanks,Franzę, for adding to the discussion. I feel the need to make two points, however.

The first is that a "fact" deals with a special kind of truth or reality and can be distinguished from opinion or conclusions. You provide all three types, but identify them all as "fact". For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franzę
FACT{ Soda operates at far lower pressures than hard medias, and far lower volumes of media per square area than conventional media.
Most reasonable people would agree that was a "fact".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franzę
FACT{ I'll refrain from commenting on Eastwood's product beyond saying I wouldn't pay 10ó for it. If it took Eastwood's more than 2 hours to figure out the eductor they need to restudy the subject.
Most reasonable people would agree that was an opinion and not a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franzę
FACT{ anybody with some knowledge of dry media handling eductors can build a soda blaster similar to a company I'll not mention a second time from a dry powder extinguisher in a home shop.
Most reasonable people would agree that was a conclusion and not a fact.

NOTE: If you will provide it, a reference to technical information about the design of dry media handling eductors would be an especially useful addition to this thread since it would allow us to build our own soda blaster from a dry powder extinguisher (I have several that are too old to be acceptable to the Fire Marshall).

Second, I believe that your are not making an allowance for the important distinction between hobbyist and commercial equipment. Commercial equipment needs to be very ruggedly built, trouble-free and produce consistent, repeatable results at or above industry standards in a production environment. Such a piece of equipment is the Ace Soda Blaster, Model #101826-A, retailing at $2,300. The Eastwood Soda Blaster, while made of good materials at $300, is intended as hobby equipment.

No professional should consider the purchase and use of the Eastwood blaster to earn their living, just as most hobby users would not consider the purchase of the Ace equipment. We would elect to spend that extra $2000 one something else, if we even had it in the first place.

Your criticisms of the Eastwood blaster imply that you expect absolute parity between the commercial and hobbyist blasters. The more useful question is not whether the Eastwood blaster is a $2000 cheaper drop-in replacement of the Acer blaster (it is not), but whether or not the Eastwood blaster can do an adequate job for the hobby user.

That is a conclusion (and not a fact) that can be determined only buy using it for the purpose it was intended and examining the results. From what I have seen, for $300 it's "good enough" if used properly (and you clearly point out some of the problems any soda blaster must overcome).

Since it is unlikely that many of us will be purchasing and using commercial-grade equipment and you are knowledgeable in soda blasting tools and techniques, what practical advice can you offer that will allow us to get the most out of the Eastwood blaster?
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2009, 01:21 PM
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Here is some info about soda blasters.

A guy named "mattythies" has DIY plans for a soda blaster. It's mentioned in this thread: http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2715
The thread is from July 2004, but I'll join the forum and ask him for the plans and for permission to post the plans here if they are still available.

AllSource sells a Soda Blaster Attachment Kit for $150 and you can get one at Northern Tool: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...6065_200366065

Ace makes a 10lb. portable soda blaster for $249: http://www.ace-sandblasting.com/soda-blasting.html
as well as their more expensive soda blasters previously mentioned.

Here's United States Patent 7134945, Soda blasting apparatus:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2 FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=12&f=G&l=50&co1=OR&d=PTXT&s1="soda+bla sting"&s2="soda+blasting"&OS="soda+blasting"+OR+"s oda+blasting"&RS="soda+blasting"+OR+"soda+blasting "
or the shorter http://www.socuteurl.com/funnybabyboo

That page also cites other related patents with links to them. No patent was found for Eastwood, so it must not yet be granted. If somebody has a commercial soda blaster, it would be illuminating to know what patents they claim for their device.

Here's a page that discusses a 1941 patent (2261565) for soda blasting and compares it to Buster Blasters' product which uses U.S. Patent 7134945 mentined above: http://sodaworks.com/pages/Research.php

You need a TIFF viewer plug-in for your browser to view the USPTO images.

The patent drawing can also be seen here:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=A3F...D6VGTwTXEzO7Ec

A few questions for discussion?

1. How effective is the AllSource kit and how does it compare to the one offered by Eastwood? I would think that with Eastwood claiming its own patent, the devices should be different.

2. How do the $249 Ace portable soda blaster and the Eastwood $300 soda blaster compare?

Last edited by hduff; 04-01-2009 at 01:30 PM.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2009, 08:13 AM
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Thanks again. And thanks for the link to FoxValve.com.

As a technical writer, I'll agree that a lot of "information" is supplied by copywriters whose grasp of the technology behind the product is somewhere south of nothing and their promotion of the product is just greed dressed up in a cheap suit. Still, it's difficult for those among us who are not as knowledgeable as you to separate the from fiction since a lie often looks like (or better than) the truth. It always helps to hear what an experienced professional has to say so we can make a better decision

If I understand you correctly, the inherent problems with soda as a blasting medium can only be overcome with the proper design for the equipment. Anything based on "fire extinguisher" technology will be inferior. And I believe you. Based on the patents I referenced above, it would be interesting to see what designs are used by the top equipment companies.

The question then becomes if I want a device for light duty, small parts, very occasional use and don't want to invest a lot of money, is the Eastwood type equipment adequate? Not the best. Not the most efficient. Just adequate. And what can be done to get the best performance from it while spending the least amount of money? From what I've read, the driest air possible and the correct media are very important. How do we accomplish those goals on a budget?

BTW, I've contacted the fellow with the soda blaster plans, so we'll see what he has to offer.

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Old 04-02-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hduff
That page also cites other related patents with links to them. No patent was found for Eastwood, so it must not yet be granted. If somebody has a commercial soda blaster, it would be illuminating to know what patents they claim for their device.
I spent about 30 minutes yesterday searching both granted and provisional patents for anything from eastwood, soda blasting, soda blaster, bicarbonate eductor, soda venturi, soda siphon, and on and on. Nothing came up even remotely close. Eastwood's site also doesn't mention the retrofit as patented or patent-pending. I doubt the patent has been granted in under 2 years. It may even have been rejected by now.

I did come across the patent you mentioned and a couple others for mixing media (e.g., soda + plastic).

At any rate, soda blasting at home seems like a huge waste of time and money unless you can get your air really dry or just accept that you get a day or two before you have to throw away the media and clean out the hopper and rinse it and flush it with acetone or some other water-flushing solvent. It may work in AZ but it probably won't work in Seattle.
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Old 04-02-2009, 07:54 PM
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OK, lets begin with the subject of dry air.

It is important in any situation, from air tools not kept in a heated environment to paint and media blasting.

Dry air isn't impossible to acheive, and can be accomplished fairly cheap even if you can't weld. By can't weld I mean you aren't competent to weld on a pressure vessel, and I have no intention of getting into welding discussions on this site or welding certification either.

Long ago I developed a contraption that you can find on over 100 sites called the "Franzinator". Feel free to google it. 90% of the people who say it can't work have never tried building it. Rest assured, if built to specification it does work. 90% of the people who say it doesn't work did NOT build correctly or did NOT place it in the correct location in the air system.
http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTa...showtopic=1461
I have developed the device over 40 years and maximized its possibility in my use situation. Slight improvements can be acheived for people needing more seperation because of where they are located. Feel free to ask questions on Toolbox, because I see no point in posting what I have to say on multiple sites.

There have been a boatload of immitators, they didn't adhere to the dimensions and got crap results. For nonweldors there is a plan on Toolbox for the No Welding Required version.

The "Franzinator" is not a 100% air/water seperator.
Subscequently I had a second idea for what is called the Jonsiematic Air polisher. It's fairly well discussed at http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTa...opic=1835&st=0.
Again, feel free to ask questions, same rule applies.

To save somebody typing, copper does not give superior or even equal results to iron in the "Franzinator" because copper is nonradiational by comparison to steel in heat situations.

With a polisher behind a "Franzinator" you will have sufficiently dry air for most aplications, unless you dwell in a swamp.

Since my presumption is nobody here is running a 100CFM compressor and pushing a ╝" tip I see no point in addressing that level of machinery.

In any media blasting situation, water in the air is a problem, regardless of the media. Soda is a 10 on the PITA scale when it comes to moiusture being a problem. Ground glass is about a 3. There is nothing short of dumping rock into a truck that rates a 1 or 2.
Coated sodas are lowering their PITA rating, but not by much.

Soda is easily fracturable, and that means in the hose and gun. Blowing dust out of a hose acheives nothing, unless you're a freak of nature who can't get enough of the taste.

Some of the small soda blasters I've seen in the market appear to attempt to employ the same basic design as a powder fire extinguisher. It's a good idea, BUT, the Bozo designing the machine forgot a few things. Extinguishers are pressurized with either DRY AIR or Nitrogen, and are a limited duration fast dump device. Extinguisher powders also contain a considerable amount of lubricant, generally ground talc. Soda doesn't contain lubricant.

Soda blasting requires metering the media into the airstream. Were the media in a nonpressurized hopper this would be very easy to do, BUT the "designers" have become fascinated with pressurized hoppers because they lack common sense. When you factor in that they pressurize the hopper with the same airsource they use for the blast stream, they screw themselves right out of the box. I've proven this on commercial units.

Metering into an eductor isn't hard to accomplish, most commercial machines do it with a pinwheel, as is shown on thepage I previously posted on dry media eductors. It works well until clumping occurrs in the pot. Most commercial machines try to solve clumping by employing a vibrator or thumper. It works some days. The clowns marketing homeowner soda blasters for a few hundred bucks attempt to solve clumping and metering with sized ports and dump valves. I don't know your level of frustration before you kick something out the door, but mine is failry short. I have no desire to stop blasting to clear a clump every couple minutes, and I long ago stopped listening to excuses from manufacturers and vendors.

Bottom line at this point can a small soda blaster for home use be made in somebody's garage? Sure it can. How many hours are you willing to spend making it? I've got a few ideas on what will work, but no inclination to spend 100+ hours making one and I have a fairly complete shop available.

My first experience shooting soda was more than 30 years ago. I told the "engineers" and the people who wrote the spec it was the wrong media for the job. They knew more than I did, and they signed off on my objections. The smart people were the first to run when the cloud lofted into the sky, and they were noplace to be found when the firetrucks arrived. They also paid the bill for all the load of soda, as well as the cost of doing the job correctly.

Blast media has come a long way over the last 30 years, and there are many purpose specific media, including granulated dry ice. For some unknown reason in the last 2 or 3 years a fascination with soda has developed, particularly in respect to cars. I can't see a single benefit to blowing soda toward a car, it's the wrong damn media. If you want to clean caked on grease soda is a good choice, but not for removing paint. Paint manufacturers warn against using soda on a vehicle, and won't warranty product if soda is used.


BTW, don't ever let an insurance carrier talk you into mold remediation by sodablasting. Soda doesn't kill the mold, but it gets the carrier off the hook when the mold consumes your hovel.
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Old 04-03-2009, 06:12 PM
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Soda blasting aside, I have a chronic problem with moisture since my shop is only a few miles from Cape Henry, where the Atlantic meets the Chesapeake Bay and is bordered by the Great Dismal Swamp to the south just for good measure. I drain buckets of H2O from my compressor in the summertime and the blasting cabinet is almost unusable in August.

I found the Franzinator a compelling idea and collected a number of informational links in my blog at http://www.route60garage.com/ just to keep track of them.

Franzę is also quite the prolific author of some good HOWTO info at http://z6.invisionfree.com/ToolBoxTa...p?showforum=28

I had the chance yesterday to use a friend's Eastwood soda blaster to clean up some vintage auto trim. It did a nice job except for the problems with moisture. I would not want to use it on anything large; yes it would be a PITA.

Thanks for the info, Franzę.
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Old 04-03-2009, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hduff

I had the chance yesterday to use a friend's Eastwood soda blaster to clean up some vintage auto trim. It did a nice job except for the problems with moisture. I would not want to use it on anything large; yes it would be a PITA.
Moisture in air lines how does it get there? Well let me first explain a little bit of physics. Air that is below the temperature of 32 degrees Fahrenheit can not hold water because the water freezes and falls out. So the opposite holds true: The hotter the air the more water it will hold unless you are in an area that is very dry. In humid areas as the air temperature rises it absorbs more water. Now on a humid day of 80% that means that the air is saturated with water vapor to a percent of 80. Ok so our air compressors take in humid air and compress it by about 9 times. Water does not compress so it winds up in our compressor air tanks and lines. Also compressed air is hot and when it leaves the air compressor it starts to cool and this also causes the water to drop or fall out.

Now with all of that said how do we work around it? Well you can buy one of the high dollar driers that cool the air to below freezing before it enters the compressor or you can buy one that cools the air after it leaves the compressor. These are very expensive but they do a good job. They are actually refrigeration units. I once worked at a shop that had one and it was great. Another way is a trap or filter that uses desiccant. These work good but you have to change the desiccant cartridge from time time and they too are kind of pricey. I have seen some of the high dollars units (thousands of dollars) that contained both desiccant and chilled the air.

I've been at it now for going on forty years and I have fought moisture all along the way. I don't do much blasting any more but I still paint and I use a plasma cutter attached to shop air and the moisture can really create problems in all of these. For years I have used the old standby toilet paper air filter (real cheap) and I usually replace it for every job. I have tried all kinds of traps and made a few of my own and some worked and some didn't. But a few years ago I came up with another idea. I have already posted it in another thread so I just copied and pasted it here:

Now something that you guys may not know is to use an old house steam radiator as a water trap. You can pick them up cheap at building wrecker yards. They can hold a lot of pressure and usually all that is wrong with them is bad fittings and you will change all of that anyway. Plumb it so the air from the compressor goes into the bottom at one end and leaves at the top of the other. Depending on what type you find you may have to drill and tap a hole to accomplish this. You may even have to use a bung and this could be brazed on or silver soldered. Place it so that air can get to both sides and put a water trap down low at the outlet side or end that is farthest away from the compressor, I have an automatic spitter valve on mine. Be sure to slope it about an inch toward the spitter. On hot humid days I put a shop fan on one side of it but I have found that this is not necessary during the winter months. You will be surprised at how much water it collects.

For insurance I still use a fresh roll of toilet paper in the toilet paper filter when ever I paint a car but the steam radiator works great for everything else.

I hope that this helps with the water problem.
Chris

Last edited by Chris Kemp; 04-03-2009 at 08:52 PM.
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