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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2009, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kemp
Now on a humid day of 80% that means that the air is saturated with water vapor to a percent of 80.
You did good; the infield fly rule is often better understood than "relative humidity". To more fully explain, here are two links to Wikipedia; read the first to understand "partial pressure", the second to understand relative humidity. Sadly the article ignores he effects of increased pressure, and instead focuses on decreased pressure, from sea level to high altitudes. But you can get a sense of what happens by substituting our shops for the mountains and the compressor tank for seal level and then thinking backwards. (The Wikipedia author also makes an interesting observation about fog.)

Mercifully, there won't be a test on this stuff and we can use these devices whether we understand it or not. But the more we understand how they work, the better we can use them.

Physics mumbo-umbo aside, it seems to me that all we are doing is manipulating the dew point, so the water vapor (a gas) will coalesce into liquid water so it can be separated from the air (still a gas). To do this, we can change the temperature or the pressure or both. So the greater the pressure difference or the greater the temperature difference, the greater the separation effect.

Another way is to use chemistry, which is how these work:
http://www.vanairsystems.com/product...tationary.html
A homemade version of that might be useful because of the limits to mechanical separation.

BTW, here's a physics experiment I encourage everybody to try. Open the cap on a cold long-neck bottle of beer. Watch the vapor form inside the neck. Because of the rapid drop in pressure and the temperature difference, a cloud formed inside the neck of the bottle. As the pressure equalizes, the cloud disappears. Repeat the experiment with enthusiasm as many times as possible. After all, it's being done for physics and science. This is what's going on inside these devices.

Given where they are placed in the system, I suspect that the Franzinator is primarily a pressure device and the radiator is primarily a temperature device.

Of course, nothing happens when the system is not moving air. The most happens just as the air begins to move and then less happens as air continues to move as the system reaches pressure equilibrium. I suspect that pressure devices reach equilibrium much quicker than temperature devices.

The sad fact is that with the proper tools and time and effort, we could determine how well each of these devices work, how they really work and how to best use them. There's no incentive for manufacturers to do it because who is going to pay big $$$ for something you could whip up in your garage over the weekend no matter how well it works? So what happens is that Franzę refines his idea over 30 years and all sorts of garage lore develops about what to do and we discuss it a lot and somebody gets an idea to make it better and so it goes. It really doesn't matter what the science is, we use what works.

Great info, guys. Thanks.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2009, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hduff

BTW, here's a physics experiment I encourage everybody to try. Open the cap on a cold long-neck bottle of beer. Watch the vapor form inside the neck. Because of the rapid drop in pressure and the temperature difference, a cloud formed inside the neck of the bottle. As the pressure equalizes, the cloud disappears. Repeat the experiment with enthusiasm as many times as possible.
I loved doing this experiment! Why couldn't you have been my physics teacher? In doing this experiment I made a few observations on my own. The most noted one was that after repeated test of opening the cap and observing the vapor cloud form inside the neck of the bottle a larger cloud started to form in my conscience and I can't remember much of the experiment after that. I kept a log but after the first few sentences it became illegible. I guess I will have to repeat the experiment.

But seriously, if the Eastwood guy doesn't want to tell us what his product does to keep the soda flowing then we need to develop one of our own. Sure sounds like we have enough genius up here to do just that. We definitely have the water problem solved we just need to figure out how to keep the soda flowing. Possibly an agitator of some sort or a device in the bottom of the canister that works like a flower sifter.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 07:06 AM
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Ok, I have a question about all of this. Can I use soda to blast a roof that has had a factory installed vinyl roof on it with out it warping the metal? I'm sure that you are all aware that when the big three produced a car that had a factory installed vinyl roof they would cut corners and did not paint the roof. Of all of these types of roofs the ones that I have encountered only have a thin coat of primmer under the vinyl area. Now I don't know where you guys are at and if it has caused problems for you, but down here in the south I have had to do a lot of roof repair due to rust. There was one car an 81 Buick century that I actually replaced the roof on it with another one from the junk yard that had not had a vinyl roof installed on it. A lot of people that restore these late seventies and early eighties cars do not want the vinyl roof put back on them so it creates a lot of work in getting the metal really straight. I have sand blasted and bead blasted but I am not educated in soda blasting. When you sand blast a big sheet of metal such as a roof it will warp it. If soda blasting will remove the rust and what little bit of primer that the factory put on these cars without warping the sheet metal, that would be great!
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kemp
...... If soda blasting will remove the rust and what little bit of primer that the factory put on these cars without warping the sheet metal, that would be great!
I believe somewhere in the 5 pages of this post it was stated that soda will NOT remove rust. It is not aggressive enough for rust removal.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 09:48 AM
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all good questions, how about 4: removing the film it leaves and 5:what is this film
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franzę
Well Chris, when you can read this, recognize he couldn't be a Physics Teacher because he's a teck writer, and I won't even address the problems I've had with that group over the years.
Never taught physics per se, just elementary school.

My technical book here: http://www.amazon.com/Red-Hat-Linux-.../dp/0672326299 ; I'm still getting royalties. The book makes a great Christmas gift for loved ones (according to the publisher) and is handy to level tables, anchor papers in the breeze and swat big bugs (I've used it for all three).

Tech writing is difficult and often not done well because the people who are very knowledgeable in a field usually have poor communication skills and typically see writing "documentation" as an annoyance. While a good tech writer won't be an expert in a tech field, they should be smart enough to understand it, because translating "tech speak" to English is mandatory. I always want to make my tech writing a compelling read rather than the usual dry and terse drivel that passes for most tech writing. Publishers don't want to pay for that, so I don't make my living doing it.

Having written tech articles yourself, you understand how hard it is to communicate a technical idea to the masses.

Anyway, given your proscription against car guys using soda, what would you use soda for?
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franzę
AGAIN I ask, what the hell is so special about soda in the car community? I see people in a frenzy trying to use the wrong product.
Like many things in this hobby, media attention is key. There have been many magazine articles demonstrating soda blasting. At fist, it looks like soda blasting eliminates a lot of the problems that non-professionals using blasting equipment encounter. No warpage. No damage. Easy non-EPA-involved disposal of residue. Doesn't matter that improved skill and a better understanding of existing blast media could solve the problem -- it's the new "holy Grail". These article never mention any down-side. Then when attention is heightened, businesses see a new opportunity to sell stuff whether it right or wrong. They buy advertising in the magazines, who run more soda blasting articles. And so it goes. And often without the accompanying handbasket.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 05:17 PM
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very interesting stuff,very intelligent people.I went back to the begining of this thread and read it to the end.Heres what I learned 1) after three beers I forgot about the experiment ,had to do it all over again,after three more beers I couldnt see the neck of the bottle so clearly and I cant remember last nights results so my experiment failed. 2) I can buy enough chemical striper for 300.00 to strip five cars it takes 4-8 hours to completly strip most cars 3)I'll stick to the chemical stripers nobody seems to debate weather or not they work,blasters are messy and I havent heard any good reasons to switch,I would like to hear some though. I have a 90lb pressure blaster and only used it once two years ago I blasted a sub frame with it but needed to build a plywood box to contain the used sand .Other than blasting frames I really have no use for it.There was a company around here that soda blasted cars for 1200.00 since the chemical striper is around 50.00 and a good days pay is 200.00 I feel even more strongly about chemical stripping after reading this thread I save 1000.00 on each car, I'm a do it yourself kinda guy too. Dont get me started on eastwood snap-on 3-m etc...........I'll keep my money
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by deadbodyman
)I'll stick to the chemical stripers nobody seems to debate weather or not they work,blasters are messy and I havent heard any good reasons to switch,I would like to hear some though.
Keep going with the cloud-making experiment. My theory is that somewhere out there is a beer that will not produce a cloud and I will eventually find it through repeated trails.

The only caveat to chemical stripping I'm aware of is that is gets into places that are difficult to get it out of like inside braces and rolled edges. I pressure wash and neutralize the stripper per packages directions, but some always gets left and will ruin paint. The more you pay for the paint job, the more likely this is, it seems. Of course, YMMV. If you are careful and don't get sloppy and can rinse the part thoroughly, it's not bad.

Blasting bigger stuff is a different kind of messy. I've heard that plastic media is good for big pieces of non-rusty sheet metal (for the heat), but have only experience with black oxide and glass beads so far and have not blasted any large panels. Once I get my moisture problems solved, I should probably get some different types of media and experiment.

I have a problem here being so close to salt water that freshly exposed steel will rust quickly so I apply OSPHO ASAP, do the work on it right away, re-OSPHO and clean and prime it. Anybody use anything better?

I have yet to strip and entire body, but have two projects waiting that need it . One is a fiberglass body painted with spray-can enamel, the other a heavily rusted and bondo'd '54 Triumph TR2. Chemical stripper looks like the way to go on the fiberglass and I'm still not sure on the other.

Keep making clouds.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2009, 06:59 AM
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dont use stripper on fiberglass ,it'll melt it ,I got it on a glass header one time,what a mess.I've been doing this for years,First put two or three layers of 3/4 tape over all the gaps so none gets in the jambs.Second put three layers of paper in front of hood back of deck and over the doors,layer them on top of each other.Some paints like laquers and the real cheap stuff at your local 99.00 paint shops will turn a watery viscosity and will need a place to run hence the three layers of paper as one fills up tear it off and the next one is there waiting use a few differnt putty knifes and a razor scraper to get under the first layer of epoxy or whatever was used,its simple,after a bit of practice anyone can do a car a day.As far as the ospho thats exactly what I use and will continue to use any time I work with bare metal, but some very intelligent people will tell you a hundred reasons why it cant work all of whom have never used it ,so be warned about printing the name OSHPO is like saying the devils prayer be ready for a fight BTW I use aircraft striper,in a blue can.I'll have to wait till next weekend to try the experiment again ,this time I'll get a couple of buddies and use my wife as a control

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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009, 04:01 PM
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This is a perfect example of Eastwood's overpricing. I see about $25 of hardware in that "kit". $25 retail price right out of Home Depot.
What a rip off. Do people actually buy this stuff from Eastwood?
I totally agree.

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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009, 06:35 PM
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So from all of this I am concluding that Eastwwood over charges and soda blasting is great for polishing, cleaning and mold removal. I already have walnut shells and eraser dust so I can polish and clean in my bead blaster. Since I don't plan on selling my house and I actually like the smell of mold in the morning, (if I can smell it that means that I'm still alive and it's not feeding on me yet) I have no need for it there either. Chemical stripping is the best way to go for paint removal on car bodies but you must use caution around the seams. Sandblasting, shot blasting and bead blasting is the best way to remove rust but you must use caution and treat it as soon as you are through blasting. And last but not least any experiment that involves beer and young women is worth while.

Did I miss anything?
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009, 07:08 PM
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Well,I'm not real big on blasting but if I was to do some I'd use a spot blaster with a vacuum ,the media, not sand never hits the floor it recycles it back through. Its nice but small and takes time,it works well on pitted rust.if using chem strip two to three layers of tape will keep the goo from getting into where its not supposed to.Also the little blaster wont warp anything
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:16 PM
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Yeah Chris, yo completely missed the part about borrowing a few pounds of the neighbor's pool chlorine and using that to kill the mold, wearing a suplied air mask of course.

You also missed the part about media blasting being a poor way to actually remove rust, because it peens tiny little rust seed compartments shut.
I tend to favor electrolosys (actually rust electroplating) followed by chemicle methods.

And, I think you overlooked the part about boots on -v- off, which I contend is determined solely by who pays for the sheets.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:06 AM
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Eastwood soda blaster

I bought one from Eastwood. It works very well. The soda needs to be removed afterward or it will cake in the 25.00 worth of fittings. Its not the fittings that make it work. It is what is inside the fittings that makes it work. I'd say I am very happy with it. Dry air is a must.

My only disappointment is the cost of the soda. I have not found a good local source for it. I have bought it from Eastwood and TP, but the shipping kills me.

I'm hoping one of them will have a deal at Carlisle this spring.

On another note. I love having the soda blaster here but by the time I got done buying and shipping the soda for what I did compared to what I had done in ther past, I could have had the soda blast guy do it for about the same price and possibly cheaper.

Ben Braun
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