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Old 10-22-2012, 09:29 AM
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Solid roller lifters in a Hydraulic roller cam?

Hi
Anyone has been done this before? Because I have a new set of roller solid lifters and I want to buy a hyd roller cam that is a good price, worthwhile?
thank you

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Old 10-22-2012, 12:24 PM
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It "depends". Which lifters? Street or "race only"?

We've done it with a couple of Comp XE grinds. Set the lash at .008" and it will be fine.

For street use, you MUST use a lifter with "positive" oiling to the wheels. Comp "Endurex" and Crower "HIPPO" are the two I know the best. Both are suitable for strteet. Highly recommend you "restrict" the oil to the top, too.

FWIW

Jim
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:32 PM
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usually a hydraulic stick is less aggressive than a solid.How cheap is the stick?If you are willing to use solid rollers,why not buy the correct stick?
BTW I use the crower rollers,,,
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:57 PM
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You should have no trouble as long as you use a high quality lifter (crower) and then set the heads up for increased spring pressure. You will probably want at least 200 psi on the seat. The obvious oiling issues that have been presented in previous posts are correct, but using roller valvetrain components you don't need a ton of oil at the top end. You want to keep it in the pan. You might gain a few hundred RPM on the top end, but other than that why are you going to soild lifter?
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:46 PM
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Don't use a "sad stick" with solid lifters. If you are going to purchase a stick anyway, buy a "happy stick." If you use a happy stick you should restrict the lifter oiling to prevent spun rod bearings. When you use restricted lifters or restrict lifter oiling, you should use full roller rocker arms. Stock or roller tip rocker arms will burn up and seize the rocker balls if the valve train has restricted oiling. I learned that the hard way in 1967 because there was no internet.

The GM edge orifice solid flat tappets used to restrict valve train oiling on the 30-30 cam that came with the 1965 Fuel Injected Corvettes had a problem with burned up rocker balls, especially when they were used with aftermarket high load valve springs. That is the main reason Harland Sharp introduced full roller rocker arms.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:30 PM
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I would not do it on the street.
I have run many hydraulic flat tappets with solid lifters in race engine, but only because of restricted oval track rules. The cam grinder people told me the problem with durability is due to the closing ramp being so fast on a hydraulic that is causes a solid lifter to bounce, even with heavy spring pressures.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:11 AM
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Sport, he stated solid roller lifters on a hydraulic roller cam.
And by all means the guys are right by restricting oil to the top end. However the one way you could use stamped rockers with restricted oil is to tach weld a deflector on the rocker arm right over where the oil comes out of the push rod, the deflector will direct the oil directly down into the rocker ball, which prevents it from burning up. But this is still somewhat of a shakey deal, but it'll work in a pinch. It'll work better if using synthetic oil. But if I were going through the trouble of going with solid roller lifters, I'd go with full roller rockers as suggested.
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:51 AM
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No you can't just buy a solid cam or hyd. lifters. If you could they would be happy to sell it that way. Solid cam is different lobe type.

It will chew itslef to peices in a few thousand miles. then you will need more then a set of lifters you will need an engine rebuild. To answer your next question: Nope a tear down and clean up wont fix it will have trashed the motor before you know whats going on.

If you need more power and low cost just use a flat solid cam. They work fine and only cost 100 bucks. Roller does not make more power by default. Flat cams still rule the roost for big HP.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:03 AM
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Absolutely no comparison between the driving of a "roller" engine versus a flat-tappet. The "peak" power of a given set of lift/duration will be similar if both are "solid" cams. Drivability and low-speed perrformance, the roller SHINES.

We have had several customers change their lifters from the clunky hydraulic "retro-fit" hydraulic rollers to much lighter/smaller solid rollers. As long as the "rules" I laid out are followed, they will be FINE. Ignore any "buzzing" from superstitious folks without "hands-on" experience. In Rick Holladay's '65 GTO convertible, we changed the lifters/pushrods (must be longer) and NOTHING ELSE (Comp XR294HR). The car picked up .2 in the 1/4 mile (10.40s @ 128, 3,700 lbs., 434 CID Pontiac). He drove it on the street for another couple years before he made it a "dedicated" race car.

Jim
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body View Post
Absolutely no comparison between the driving of a "roller" engine versus a flat-tappet. The "peak" power of a given set of lift/duration will be similar if both are "solid" cams. Drivability and low-speed perrformance, the roller SHINES.

We have had several customers change their lifters from the clunky hydraulic "retro-fit" hydraulic rollers to much lighter/smaller solid rollers. As long as the "rules" I laid out are followed, they will be FINE. Ignore any "buzzing" from superstitious folks without "hands-on" experience. In Rick Holladay's '65 GTO convertible, we changed the lifters/pushrods (must be longer) and NOTHING ELSE (Comp XR294HR). The car picked up .2 in the 1/4 mile (10.40s @ 128, 3,700 lbs., 434 CID Pontiac). He drove it on the street for another couple years before he made it a "dedicated" race car.

Jim
True for the flat tappet cams, rollers are better for most street cars.

But to call ppl Supersitious folks without hands on experience: First things first the lifters you are telling him to buy would cost more than the correct solid cam that will make more power. If he is going to spend more than the right cam cost making the wrong solution then his question of: "Is it worthwhile?" the only correct answer is no. The right stuff will not fail you. Either flat or roller correctly installed they will last a long time and make good power.

If you really had good hands on you would know that the best thing to do is the right thing. Build 100 motors and tell me you are going to waste your time installing something that may work. I only go with correct parts. Mix up stuff never makes good power and will always fail when your customers need it. Just cause it didnt blow up on the lift does not mean it works in all cases.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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What am I missing here? The question was about usiing solid roller lifters on a hydraulic roller cam. Then all this talk about flat tappets gets in here. And "chew things up"? Not with the roller...

Perhaps you missed the part about our having actually DONE IT more than once. To quote an old friend... "While only having done the job, and never actually READ about it, you MAY have me at a disadvantage..." The truth is, we (engine builders) have been using solid lifters on "hydraulic" cams since the '60s. The Ram Air IV Pontiac cam REALLY wakes up using solids on it. Those are "flat tappet", too. The rollers just make it all a bunch easier.

PAX

Jim
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:28 PM
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Prior to 1970, solid flat tappet or roller lifters were often used on hydraulic lifter camshafts because higher spring loads could be used and solid lifters will not pump up at high RPM and float the valves. Solid lifters (roller or flat tappet) when used on a hydraulic lifter camshaft were good for an additional 500 - 800 RPM.

Pontiac introduced the Ram Air - 4 "limited travel" hydraulic flat tappet lifters (Melling JB-951R) in 1969. . The RA-4 limited travel lifters set at .001" to a maximum .004" pre-load with poly-locks to hold the small setting precisely. Solid roller, solid flat tappet, limited travel hudraulic or short travel hydraulic lifters cannot pump up and float the valves at high RPM because there is nowhere to pump up to. They can also be used with high valve spring pressure in order to follow a more radical high lift cam lobe profile that would cause a normal travel hydraulic lifter to "loft" over the nose of the aggressive cam lobes, causing the lifter to lose oil, fill with air and float the valves. Hydraulic lifters should not be used on a solid lifter camshaft.......why would anyone want to?

My 4.3L V6 has Comp Cam 15850 short travel REM coated hydraulic roller lifters set at .004" pre-load (1/8 turn), held with poly-locks on Comp Cams camshaft with .500" valve lift. I would never use standard hydraulic roller lifters with any camshaft that has more than .480" valve lift..... why would anyone want to?

For all practical purposes, the Pontiac Ram Air-4, Comp Cams 15850 and 875 limited, short or reduced travel lifters are solid roller lifters and the only reason they set a .004" pre-load is to prevent the push rod seat from beating out the push rod seat retainer clip.

Last edited by MouseFink; 10-23-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink View Post
For all practical purposes, the Pontiac Ram Air-4... *snip* ...are solid roller lifters
Oh, really? Since when did the RA IV have a roller cam?

Anyway, as long as a solid roller lifter is used on a hydraulic roller cam, all's well enough. Use a roller lifter on a flat tappet cam or vise versa and all is not even close to well.
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