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Old 11-19-2009, 12:47 PM
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solid roller make more power than my flat tappet cam?

hey guys i havent posted in a while but i got my 355 running good now, i feel that is capable of low 13 second quarter mile times, its got the afr 195 heads and a crane energizer 286 cam, 1.6 roller rockers, edlebrock rpm intake, holley 770 carb, 1 3/4 inch headers, its sitting around 10.5 on the compression, its got a 3500 stall and 3.73 rear end i always thought 4.11 till i checked it out.

i just want more pulling power,
theres a video of it now taking off i mean it isnt a dog at all i just want it to pull harder up in the higher rpms, even doing a roll like 20 mph or so if you floor it your on ice basically,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6fZeXthoM

and ive been playing with cam quests solid roller cams according to cam quest it seems i get 60 more peak horsepower by just putting a solid roller cam in and a higher avg tq and hp throughout the rpm range, will i really notice a very big difference by switching my cam with a solid roller like the comp cams xr280r ive been looking at?

it says with that xr280r and my setup i will have 545 hp and 6500 rpms and 486 lbs of torque at 4500rpms through my exhaust and everything, according the engine analyzer 3.5 with my crane flat tappet cam i have 480 at 6500 rpms, and around 450 lbs of torque at 4500, can that be true will i really have gains like that if i switch to that solid roller cam?

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Old 11-19-2009, 01:09 PM
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you can get some big gains by stepping up to solid roller, but to get the 60hp an off the shelf cam will nto cut it. YOu need to find a good cam guy who can custom spec one for you. Don't bother calling any big manufacturer on that one. The biggest I know of that will help you is Isky.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:04 PM
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From what I see on your video, you need more traction! I can see why you want more top end power, to make up for all that wheel spin off the line. If you can control that, you could probably get in the 12's.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrettandroski
hey guys i havent posted in a while but i got my 355 running good now, i feel that is capable of low 13 second quarter mile times, its got the afr 195 heads and a crane energizer 286 cam, 1.6 roller rockers, edlebrock rpm intake, holley 770 carb, 1 3/4 inch headers, its sitting around 10.5 on the compression, its got a 3500 stall and 3.73 rear end i always thought 4.11 till i checked it out.

i just want more pulling power,
theres a video of it now taking off i mean it isnt a dog at all i just want it to pull harder up in the higher rpms, even doing a roll like 20 mph or so if you floor it your on ice basically,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm6fZeXthoM

and ive been playing with cam quests solid roller cams according to cam quest it seems i get 60 more peak horsepower by just putting a solid roller cam in and a higher avg tq and hp throughout the rpm range, will i really notice a very big difference by switching my cam with a solid roller like the comp cams xr280r ive been looking at?

it says with that xr280r and my setup i will have 545 hp and 6500 rpms and 486 lbs of torque at 4500rpms through my exhaust and everything, according the engine analyzer 3.5 with my crane flat tappet cam i have 480 at 6500 rpms, and around 450 lbs of torque at 4500, can that be true will i really have gains like that if i switch to that solid roller cam?
Only if the new cam has a more aggressive spec than the old one. Solid rollers in and of themselves do nothing to make power. It is their use in an engine that permits a cam to have a more aggressive profile, read that the rate of lift for a degree of rotation of the lobe can be substantially increased. This also leads to the ability to design a lobe with more total lift with-in the confines of the lobe's duration. The reason for this is that flat tappet has a working angle that cannot be exceeded or else the edge of the lifter where the side meets the base will catch the lobe. At that point the forces in the contact area will be so high that they will wipe out both lobe and lifter. A roller lifter's contact point is an instant point on the roller, this allows the lobe to be more aggressively profiled. But there still is a limit as there is a point where a sufficiently aggressive lobe will push the lifter body sideways into its bore to where it will bind. But that point is a long ways from where a flat tappet has dug into its lobe destroying both so there's a lot of gain to be exploited here. Keep in mind that the contact load between the roller and lobe is very high, this requires the use of much better materials and finish processes in the roller and the cam than is required for a flat tappet, this is a big reason why rollers are so expensive.

The use of a solid lifter in place of a hydraulic is a different issue. A hydraulic lifter suffers from pump-up which can result in the valve being kept open when it should be closed. The result is the almost instant loss of power. The hydraulic also suffers from lag, which is to say as the ramp begins to push the lifter, there is a lag due to internal oil leakage which causes the valve's motion to be slightly behind what is wanted. But the big problem is pump up, this is a problem of internal dynamics of the lifter where there is a loss of back force on the lifter from the valve spring, which is a normal event coming off the lobe where the inertia of parts keeps them reacting immediately and the lifter reads this a lash to be taken up. A similar introduction of lash can occur if the valve lofts beyond the commanded lift as the lobe goes over the top. In these situations the lifter "sees" lash and moves to eliminate it. It the lifter sees and takes up enough lash, the valve will be held open on the heel of the lobe and if it's a compression/power stroke you loose that stroke's contribution to turning the crankshaft. Leak-down (anti-pump-up) lifters are designed to allow a small amount of leakage so the plunger doesn't pursue zero lash so aggressively, but they have limits as to how much leakage you can build in and keep enough rigidity in the system to get the valve fully open. They tend to delay but not eliminate the problem. The solid lifter does away with all the fancy hydraulics that soak up the lash quietly on an oil cushion and just introduce a lash distance that doesn't change and contribute to the valve being open when you want it shut. But it too has limits, push the engine fast enough and you get valve float which is just the valve system, or some part in it, being unable to get the valve to close.

Unlike what some people think, the roller doesn't provide power thru friction reduction, while undoubtedly present it just isn't all that much. To get power out of the solid roller, there has to be more lobe there that lifts the valve further and holds it open longer than the cam you currently have.

Bogie

Last edited by oldbogie; 11-19-2009 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:51 PM
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You need traction more than you need more power. BFG Radial TA's aren't exactly known for their stickiness, they are a decent handling, decent wearing tire but not much of a launching tire, they are hard as a rock.

BFG Comp TA Drag Radial, Nitto 555 Drag Radial if you intend to street drive more than track. Mickey Thompson, Hoosier, or M&H Racemaster Drag Radials if you really want hook and aren't going to drive in the rain but a tiny, tiny, tiny amount.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:04 PM
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It looks like it runs damn good for the combo your running. I agree more than anything you need traction. Remember, a million horsepower won`t win a race against 10 horsepower if it has no traction. Leaf spring rears like in your bird aren`t great for hooking. Get some slapper bars if don`t already and do your home work on tuning the rear for better traction. Add a set of sticky tires as been suggested and you`ll be surprised. If you go with Mickey thompson SS tires remember they require a hard burn out to get them sticky. The drag radials seem to do well and would serve you well.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Don't bother calling any big manufacturer on that one. The biggest I know of that will help you is Isky.
Lunati tech will spend as much time as you have, they've custom spec'd and ground two cams for me recently, the last spending over an hour on the phone, they are knowledgeable as well. The SR cam I'm runnning now is spot on.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68NovaSS
Lunati tech will spend as much time as you have, they've custom spec'd and ground two cams for me recently, the last spending over an hour on the phone, they are knowledgeable as well. The SR cam I'm runnning now is spot on.

that's the first time I've heard that Lunati had knowledgable tech, I know HB will spec you the lobes and CL's to use and you can call up Lunati and have it ground but I haven't heard too much about Lunati being good themeselves. Isky I have had experience with and would gladly do business with them again. Same went for Erson a LONG time ago before they got bought up and condensed into what they are now.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:35 AM
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Forget the cam for now go to hoosier tire .com and order 2 -265/65-15 dot racing tires from the discontinued section for $55.00 ea.10.5 inches wide,28.5 inches tall and street legal.Hooks like slicks
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:46 AM
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Don't know what or who "HB" is, or what a LONG time is at 24, if you're talking personal, hands on experiences. I agree that things have changed significantly over the years, in the early '60's I dealt with Engle and Crower when I was on my learning curve, I imagine they've gone global and lost some allure as well. BTW, that curve never ends, lol.

Bogie - nice post.
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Old 11-20-2009, 11:31 AM
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alright ill get some decent tires, im gonna need to get subframe connectors for sure then, and ill most likely get some traction bars to, hah old bogie you really explained it!, it feels like it would really come out of the hole hard if i had traction, ill get my traction under control and see what its like after that,

the car never sees the rain i just got done restoring it so its completely kept out of all the elements, so ill run whatever tires i need to get traction, i dont really care about any factor except it going fast in a straight line,
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68NovaSS
in the early '60's I dealt with Engle and Crower
You prolly remember hearing or seeing the Gasser wars, with all the hoopla between Isky (with his 5-Cycle and Polydyne cams- still have a decal somewheres) and Engle and Howard.

The gasser era was pertty neat, even for a kid.

Quote:
Bogie - nice post.
The guy's a freaking PROFESSOR! Dr. Bogie lol
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:21 PM
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Loose the front sway bar and put on some real loose front shocks like 90/10's
and hang on!!!
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:36 PM
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"HB" is Harold Brookshire, the brain who designed the Lunati Voodoo lobes, before that he designed the Comp Cams Extreme Energy lobes, and before that was the brains behind Ultradyne cams, which is now Bullet Cams, and yada yada all the way back to General Kinetics Cams in the Grumpy Jenkins era. Few know more about cam design than HB. You will see him pop up on other boards as UDHarold(UD for UltraDyne). He is now an un-affiliated custom cam designer.
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:39 PM
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HB- Harold Brookshire, one of the most renowned cam guys that posts on auto forums, has done a LOT of cam work and is very good, any one who knows him will atest to that.

And by long time ago I was referering to before they were bought out. Like 6-7 years I believe. which to some guys is a drop in the hat, but to me it was a while, I guess its all relative.

Bogie's post was good but you don't necessarily need more lift or duration, but a more agressive curve- more area under it.
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