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Old 11-07-2011, 12:29 AM
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Solutions for pro drag racing, part 2:

i think we were getting a little off the topic of the original "dragster design questions" thread so i thought we should start a new one.

Also, i would like to withdraw from the discussion, not because i don't enjoy talking about it, but because something came up and i feel continuing the discussion would not best suit my present needs. However, i would like to leave with the following and would encourage everyone/anyone else to continue with the discussion:

(quoting bentwings)
Ok
Most TF,FC,PS TFmc would bristle at your response. I'l try and be more reasonable and explain since I've been around since the early days of drag racing.

1.Eliminate... nitro this was done at one time and nearly caused th demise of the top dragster classes. FC had not been invented yet.

Blowers have had limits for a long time.

turbos have limits

nitrous is limited to classes.

2. Pro classes. Back about in the early 70's all the pros banned together for a TF, FC, and PS only race at Tulsa, Ok. It was probably the hardest fought race ever in racing history. There were over 100 of each for qualifying. It was a spectacular event for a packed house. Those that were there will never forget it.

3. Pro cars and PMC cost a fortune to build an operate just as NASCAR cars do. It requires a big sponsor or very deep pockets to field these cars. The winnings help support the teams and give life blood to the cars and the sport.
A Nostalgia FC for example can cost $150k just for a race ready car, no spare parts, add another $75k for a truck and trailer. Travel expenses, motel, food and entry fees can run you up to $4 or more a mile. Then just clutch, tires and fuel can drive the cost per run to several grand. At some point it is no longer a hobby and you must make ends meet or you will be out of business.

4. When racing was a hobby yes there were 32 car shows weekly at some tracks. The stars shook out and they became the "demand" thus they began getting paid to race....The birth of pro drag racing, and the end of free shows. Sorry that's the way it went. NASCAR did this far earlier than dragracing.

5. The "Pro Fan". We used to joke about this but it is fact. There is a certain segment of people who just attend events be they baseball, football or auto racing or others. Don't think they are idiots and know nothing about the sports. Drag racing allows and encourages pit passes and fans in the pits. It can be more exciting than watching the races. Who is who is well known to the fans. There are loads of people who are former racers who now can only dream of being in the seat or twisting the wrenches. They attend every race they can.

Can you tell how fast the cars are going?? Well if your buddy is racing a 17 sec Honda against a 17 sec VW I doubt you could put a number on it. I also doubt that you would pay $50 to watch a a 32 car 17 sec VW field and a 32 car 17 sec Honda field race each other for a $5 trophy. Even I who claims to never be bored would have to come up with something other than "ho hum can we go now??".
As for the fast cars well if you have been in the stands at the finish line when 2 300 mph cars go by I 'm sure even a neophyte could tell the difference when a pair of 220 mph cars go by.

Take the excitement away and the fans will leave exponentially.
End quoting




1) i did not discover/get into dragging until about 78/9 and i think it was still good back then. Although by then brackets had become the mainstay at most strips and i have no real idea what class racing and gassers was all about. So, yes, i admit i don't really know what it's completely about, but i think i know a little.

As far the extra power adders, blowers/turbos/nitrous etc., Yes, they are limited in terms of size/output and/or class limitations, but i meant in regards to the pro classes----these would take away big time power,---thus lowering speed, thus taking care of the safety issue while not taking away from decent racing in my opinion. i think it's a fair, simple, clear cut way to slow the cars down.

2) i think it was PRA? Not sure what your were trying to get at though?

3) Again, i feel that the pros would still rise to the top and therefore would not be in danger of nessesarily losing sponsorship. Although, admittedly, the sponsorship money may be a bit lower because some fans might lose interest due to the slower numbers----maybe.

a) 75K for a nostalgia FC hauler. Really? i could see if someone wanted to take the easy way out and just sign on the dotted line, then yes. But i feel a much cheaper, yet functionally equivalent, rig could be procured (with some effort) for about 30K or less.

b) i don't consider food, for myself, an "expense" because i would have to eat regardless of wether i'm piloting a funnycar or sitting at home in front of the computer. But for crewmembers, yes.

4) See #3 above

5) i'm not really talking about the 17 sec cars, because these are not pro cars. What i'm talking about is we are still going to have dragster, funny, and pro stock, but with the dragsters and funnys, just no blowers/turbos and nitro---must run straight alcohol.

i think (and think the average person/race fan thinks) that a dragster with dual tunnel ram at a bracket race is very interesting and looks very similar to a top fuel car. They also tend to run quite quick. Only very hard-core fans may not appreciate this.

i don't like shows like passtime and pinks all out but i think the machinery on these shows are fascinating. In fact, i find them just as fascinating if not more than the pro cars. NOTE: i stopped watching NHRA pro drag racing many seasons ago.

i'm not saying the average fan does not know anything about the technical aspects of the race cars. All i'm saying is that i feel the average fan wouldn't care so much of the engine makeup as long as the racing is still good. And i don't see where 2 carbs and 5 speeds is not exciting.


My refined pro rules: Feel free to criticize, or augment etc.

1) All chassis rules stay the same (although i don't like the funnycar body rules) except pro stock weight increase to 2800, maybe even 3000 in order to keep a e.t. and speed disparity between them and the dragsters/funnies. Also, the average street car weighs close to 3000lbs anyways.

2) Maybe allow cubic inch max limit to 800 or even 1000 cid for dragsters/funnies. Must be naturally aspirated---no blowers/turbos/nitrous.

3) Not sure if to allow unlimited number of engines for dragsters

4) Injection still allowed for dragsters/funnies AND pro stocks. The reason why i want it allowed for P/S is because F.I. comes with every new car sold and has been that way for at least 15 yrs. It just makes sense to allow it.

5) No burnouts past starting line. Automatic disqualification would result. Also, max number of burnouts---1. Although i strongly favor NO burnouts.

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Old 11-08-2011, 12:55 AM
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Pro drag racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by against all odds
i think we were getting a little off the topic of the original "dragster design questions" thread so i thought we should start a new one.

Also, i would like to withdraw from the discussion, not because i don't enjoy talking about it, but because something came up and i feel continuing the discussion would not best suit my present needs. However, i would like to leave with the following and would encourage everyone/anyone else to continue with the discussion:

(quoting bentwings)
Ok
Most TF,FC,PS TFmc would bristle at your response. I'l try and be more reasonable and explain since I've been around since the early days of drag racing.

1.Eliminate... nitro this was done at one time and nearly caused th demise of the top dragster classes. FC had not been invented yet.

Blowers have had limits for a long time.

turbos have limits

nitrous is limited to classes.

2. Pro classes. Back about in the early 70's all the pros banned together for a TF, FC, and PS only race at Tulsa, Ok. It was probably the hardest fought race ever in racing history. There were over 100 of each for qualifying. It was a spectacular event for a packed house. Those that were there will never forget it.

3. Pro cars and PMC cost a fortune to build an operate just as NASCAR cars do. It requires a big sponsor or very deep pockets to field these cars. The winnings help support the teams and give life blood to the cars and the sport.
A Nostalgia FC for example can cost $150k just for a race ready car, no spare parts, add another $75k for a truck and trailer. Travel expenses, motel, food and entry fees can run you up to $4 or more a mile. Then just clutch, tires and fuel can drive the cost per run to several grand. At some point it is no longer a hobby and you must make ends meet or you will be out of business.

4. When racing was a hobby yes there were 32 car shows weekly at some tracks. The stars shook out and they became the "demand" thus they began getting paid to race....The birth of pro drag racing, and the end of free shows. Sorry that's the way it went. NASCAR did this far earlier than dragracing.

5. The "Pro Fan". We used to joke about this but it is fact. There is a certain segment of people who just attend events be they baseball, football or auto racing or others. Don't think they are idiots and know nothing about the sports. Drag racing allows and encourages pit passes and fans in the pits. It can be more exciting than watching the races. Who is who is well known to the fans. There are loads of people who are former racers who now can only dream of being in the seat or twisting the wrenches. They attend every race they can.

Can you tell how fast the cars are going?? Well if your buddy is racing a 17 sec Honda against a 17 sec VW I doubt you could put a number on it. I also doubt that you would pay $50 to watch a a 32 car 17 sec VW field and a 32 car 17 sec Honda field race each other for a $5 trophy. Even I who claims to never be bored would have to come up with something other than "ho hum can we go now??".
As for the fast cars well if you have been in the stands at the finish line when 2 300 mph cars go by I 'm sure even a neophyte could tell the difference when a pair of 220 mph cars go by.

Take the excitement away and the fans will leave exponentially.
End quoting




1) i did not discover/get into dragging until about 78/9 and i think it was still good back then. Although by then brackets had become the mainstay at most strips and i have no real idea what class racing and gassers was all about. So, yes, i admit i don't really know what it's completely about, but i think i know a little.

As far the extra power adders, blowers/turbos/nitrous etc., Yes, they are limited in terms of size/output and/or class limitations, but i meant in regards to the pro classes----these would take away big time power,---thus lowering speed, thus taking care of the safety issue while not taking away from decent racing in my opinion. i think it's a fair, simple, clear cut way to slow the cars down.

2) i think it was PRA? Not sure what your were trying to get at though?

3) Again, i feel that the pros would still rise to the top and therefore would not be in danger of nessesarily losing sponsorship. Although, admittedly, the sponsorship money may be a bit lower because some fans might lose interest due to the slower numbers----maybe.

a) 75K for a nostalgia FC hauler. Really? i could see if someone wanted to take the easy way out and just sign on the dotted line, then yes. But i feel a much cheaper, yet functionally equivalent, rig could be procured (with some effort) for about 30K or less.

b) i don't consider food, for myself, an "expense" because i would have to eat regardless of wether i'm piloting a funnycar or sitting at home in front of the computer. But for crewmembers, yes.

4) See #3 above

5) i'm not really talking about the 17 sec cars, because these are not pro cars. What i'm talking about is we are still going to have dragster, funny, and pro stock, but with the dragsters and funnys, just no blowers/turbos and nitro---must run straight alcohol.

i think (and think the average person/race fan thinks) that a dragster with dual tunnel ram at a bracket race is very interesting and looks very similar to a top fuel car. They also tend to run quite quick. Only very hard-core fans may not appreciate this.

i don't like shows like passtime and pinks all out but i think the machinery on these shows are fascinating. In fact, i find them just as fascinating if not more than the pro cars. NOTE: i stopped watching NHRA pro drag racing many seasons ago.

i'm not saying the average fan does not know anything about the technical aspects of the race cars. All i'm saying is that i feel the average fan wouldn't care so much of the engine makeup as long as the racing is still good. And i don't see where 2 carbs and 5 speeds is not exciting.


My refined pro rules: Feel free to criticize, or augment etc.

1) All chassis rules stay the same (although i don't like the funnycar body rules) except pro stock weight increase to 2800, maybe even 3000 in order to keep a e.t. and speed disparity between them and the dragsters/funnies. Also, the average street car weighs close to 3000lbs anyways.

2) Maybe allow cubic inch max limit to 800 or even 1000 cid for dragsters/funnies. Must be naturally aspirated---no blowers/turbos/nitrous.

3) Not sure if to allow unlimited number of engines for dragsters

4) Injection still allowed for dragsters/funnies AND pro stocks. The reason why i want it allowed for P/S is because F.I. comes with every new car sold and has been that way for at least 15 yrs. It just makes sense to allow it.

5) No burnouts past starting line. Automatic disqualification would result. Also, max number of burnouts---1. Although i strongly favor NO burnouts.
Bentwings was right on. I was a crew chief back then, I was at Tulsa the best drag race ever. If you start taking things away from the pro classes, the sport will die a slow death If you can't see that you know nothing about how drag racing works. and what brings the people. I live 10 miles from Brainerd and they race there almost every weekend and for $5.00 I can go in and have about any seat in the house.

Go out to the starter stand, if you can get someone to take you and stand there when two TF cars take off the first time you do it you almost go to your knees. They already have classes where the cars don't have the power and no one watches they come to see the big boys run.

Bob
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:32 AM
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Modern parts are expensive, old "nostalgia" parts are expensive too. I would like to see something like a "caveman" series based on using 15-25 year old parts/tech that is plentiful and dirt cheap. No teams, no sponsors, just crafty individules making the best of what they have to work with.

That's what i'd pay to see.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:26 AM
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Let's look at comp eliminator. The last holdout of innovation in NHRA. Forget the pro qualifying classes a second and take a walk through the comp pits at a national event. V8's, inline 6's and 5's, regular 4's, even a hemi V8 cut in half to make a 4. They might be NA or turbo or supercharged. Full body, altered or rail. The amount of combinations are staggering. Their performance is also.
No, Most people wont pay $60 a ticket to see them (I would), but NHRA is missing the boat by not offering variety in the cookie cutter pro classes. It's the same car with the same engine time after time after time. The only difference is the paint/sticker of the sponsors. Let them experiment again. Give a weight break for a different/smaller engine combo. SOMEONE BRING BACK WHEEL PANTS! Where are the jungle Pams???? The whole NHRA show lacks style. It has become a product to sell instead of a place to see how fast your car can go. I will pay to see how fast your car will go, but I'm not buying what you are selling now. It's like looking at a new car lot from the sky. Nothing sticks out or catches your eye. Its a vast sea of sameness. Thank God for the old Diamond P videos. Guys climbing out of their car with a story to tell. Not the ''Thanks to the autozone, advance auto, carquest, panasonic, westinghouse, pop tarts, staples, bestbuy nationals at national memorial for cannon copiers at stay free maxi pads stadium.'' Dang........ I need me some Steve Evans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0AsuYR89NU

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Old 11-08-2011, 11:13 AM
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Prp drag racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal1320
Let's look at comp eliminator. The last holdout of innovation in NHRA. Forget the pro qualifying classes a second and take a walk through the comp pits at a national event. V8's, inline 6's and 5's, regular 4's, even a hemi V8 cut in half to make a 4. They might be NA or turbo or supercharged. Full body, altered or rail. The amount of combinations are staggering. Their performance is also.
No, Most people wont pay $60 a ticket to see them (I would), but NHRA is missing the boat by not offering variety in the cookie cutter pro classes. It's the same car with the same engine time after time after time. The only difference is the paint/sticker of the sponsors. Let them experiment again. Give a weight break for a different/smaller engine combo. SOMEONE BRING BACK WHEEL PANTS! Where are the jungle Pams???? The whole NHRA show lacks style. It has become a product to sell instead of a place to see how fast your car can go. I will pay to see how fast your car will go, but I'm not buying what you are selling now. It's like looking at a new car lot from the sky. Nothing sticks out or catches your eye. Its a vast sea of sameness. Thank God for the old Diamond P videos. Guys climbing out of their car with a story to tell. Not the ''Thanks to the autozone, advance auto, carquest, panasonic, westinghouse, pop tarts, staples, bestbuy nationals at national memorial for cannon copiers at stay free maxi pads stadium.'' Dang........ I need me some Steve Evans.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0AsuYR89NU

I agree somewhat, , but if it were not for the pro-classes there would be less tracks than they have now. IMO NHRA is just giving the people what they want, just like NASCAR, it's show business, Look how many owners there are in the pro-classes. Not many one car teams anymore, not many drivers that work on their own cars, Why because it cost too much. TF, FC, cost almost $4000.00 a run when all is said and done. They need all those names on the car, and yes they have to mention them all too. You sound like a drag racer, you know every sticker they have on the side makes them a little money.

Like I said in my other post I live right by Brainerd, When the nats are here you can't find a room, the camp ground is full, they charge $35.00 a night to camp for 2 people, more in your camper or motorhome than that, $10.00 per person more. It might be more I'm not sure. We don't have many Motels, Hotels around here but they get a min. of $200.00 a night, we have some very nice resorts all over as this is lakes country. many get $250.00 and up for rooms, Many of the racers and fans start coming into town over a week before the race. They spend a lot of money here.

If this was just a points race, Div 5, the racers come in on Thursday night leave on Sunday. Hardly any fans, and yes it is good racing and they look like they are going fast, because the nitro cars are not there. You watch on tv when the pros are done with a round, the fans leave the stands, They don't want to watch 9 second cars after watching 4 second ones.

If they cut blowers and things, the parts aren't going down in price, the sport would be dead.

What is with the op, starts the thread, then says he has to leave.

Bob
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:53 AM
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You've heard the statement, "If I've never seen it, it's news to me!" My WAG is the majority of attendees of a Nat will only see that one race, or two at the most on any given year. So for THOSE people it's all fresh to them. So only those who attend NHRA National events on a regular basis would see it as the same ol'-same ol', IMHO.

Still, it's a good thing there's more to choose from than just the NHRA. The IHRA has classes- and a 'grittiness'- that NHRA lacks. Where the NHRA is a more polished "product", I view IHRA as a bare-fisted throwback of sorts, more in tune w/it's public.

Bottom line- try IHRA if you don't like what you see at an NHRA National event. But if you've never been to a National, be prepared to have your mind (and ear drums) BLOWN!
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Also, i would like to withdraw from the discussion, not because i don't enjoy talking about it, but because something came up and i feel continuing the discussion would not best suit my present needs. .......
Somewhere in my education process we were told about medival hooligans that took over roads and bridges. When a travlers came by they would jump out and attempt to extract a fee in order to pass them by. They often lived under bridges. However sometimes they got their lunch eaten instead. Guess that's what's happening here. haha The computer world has a name for these and I think it is still the same.

It's fun discussing the old days vs. new days. Some of us actually lived in the old days and really experienced it. I'm sure the younger guys like hearing about it and like to understand the reasons things have changed. It's part of growing up so you understand the present and help create "the new" later on....and hopefully well thought out better.

Like us "notherners" say 'If you can't take the heat, don't jump in the sauna'
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:25 PM
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Pro drag

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
You've heard the statement, "If I've never seen it, it's news to me!" My WAG is the majority of attendees of a Nat will only see that one race, or two at the most on any given year. So for THOSE people it's all fresh to them. So only those who attend NHRA National events on a regular basis would see it as the same ol'-same ol', IMHO.

Still, it's a good thing there's more to choose from than just the NHRA. The IHRA has classes- and a 'grittiness'- that NHRA lacks. Where the NHRA is a more polished "product", I view IHRA as a bare-fisted throwback of sorts, more in tune w/it's public.

Bottom line- try IHRA if you don't like what you see at an NHRA National event. But if you've never been to a National, be prepared to have your mind (and ear drums) BLOWN!
I agree, but aren't the IHRA tracks more out east or in the SE. And didn't some switch to NHRA. I don't follow IHRA as there are no tracks around here that I know of, but I do watch them on TV. But then I would watch 2 snails race. IHRA does have different rules, and classes, which I like to watch.

That's why I have told the OP if he could get someone to take him to the starters stand when two TF cars were racing, I have seen them put people on their knees when they take off, it is truly mind blowing. Your body feels like it is being blown apart.

Bob
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentwings
Somewhere in my education process we were told about medival hooligans that took over roads and bridges. When a travlers came by they would jump out and attempt to extract a fee in order to pass them by. They often lived under bridges. However sometimes they got their lunch eaten instead. Guess that's what's happening here. haha The computer world has a name for these and I think it is still the same.

It's fun discussing the old days vs. new days. Some of us actually lived in the old days and really experienced it. I'm sure the younger guys like hearing about it and like to understand the reasons things have changed. It's part of growing up so you understand the present and help create "the new" later on....and hopefully well thought out better.

Like us "notherners" say 'If you can't take the heat, don't jump in the sauna'
It was his thread, but he didn't want to stick around, does that mean we can talk about drag racing, without keeping it on his topic of trying to ruin it, pretty hard to put it out for years then take it back.

Bob
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:35 PM
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Yeah, you're right about there being fewer IHRA tracks and their distribution. And the IHRA is always looking over their shoulders to be sure the NHRA isn't going to poach their tracks. That's one reason the "lower" tracks are IHRA and the biggest venues are NHRA. If an IHRA event (or track) gets too big, well, you know the rest.

I suppose if you looked at it from an IHRA track owner/promoter's standpoint, making the "big show" may be what they've been working towards all along. But that said, I believe there are tracks that are perfectly content w/being- and staying- IHRA.
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Yeah, you're right about there being fewer IHRA tracks and their distribution. And the IHRA is always looking over their shoulders to be sure the NHRA isn't going to poach their tracks. That's one reason the "lower" tracks are IHRA and the biggest venues are NHRA. If an IHRA event (or track) gets too big, well, you know the rest.

I suppose if you looked at it from an IHRA track owner/promoter's standpoint, making the "big show" may be what they've been working towards all along. But that said, I believe there are tracks that are perfectly content w/being- and staying- IHRA.
I think they are happy if they make enough money, but that's what drives the bus. Wasn't Bristol a IHRA track?

Did IHRA and AHRA merge, or did AHRA just die?

Bob
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 35terraplane
I think they are happy if they make enough money, but that's what drives the bus. Wasn't Bristol a IHRA track?

Did IHRA and AHRA merge, or did AHRA just die?

Bob
Yeah, thank Bruton for Bristol becoming NHRA affiliated. The previous owner of Bristol was also the founder of the IHRA.

Good question on the AHRA, 35. I don't know what happened to the old AHRA. They sure kept the NHRA jumping in the early days- especially during the infamous NHRA fuel ban .
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