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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
It does not matter if energy conversion to electricty is 100% efficitiant.
Electriclty is efficient enough. The inforstructure and generating capacity exists already (most charging will be done at night off peak time.)
Electricity is produced by many sources, Nuclear, hydro wind solar, natural gas, coal and oil. Reducing the use of gasoline in north america by just 20% by diersifying the fuel used to power your daily use car. By you haveing a choice in the market place, will cause such a world glut of oil supply that the price will plumet. When oil is cheap it does not matter who owns it, its just another commodity in the market and you can't eat it. The only thing oil is absolutely required for is modern mechanized warfare. You are right on about we being addicted to oil and big heavy cars. There is no sound reason why a modern hi perf sporty car
(2010 Camaro, 2009 Challenger) has to weight as much as a 1975 Cordoba (slug tank pig) Take 1000lbs out of it and install a 150hp electric motor and you got a fun fun ride.
When they perfect the matter anti matter engine we can all switch.

GM FORD and Chrysler need to get with the program or go the way of the dinasaur. This is the new melleneum Hot RoD
I think your reasoning is full of holes on many, many levels. Firstly most of electricity in this country is produced from oil. If you generate and lose effeciency you will be getting the same amount of oil consumption ( actually more) than if you used it for an engine. Not exactly something to cause an "oil glut". Also, we are no longer the biggest purchaser of oil. Every developing nation is in the market, so the demand won't drop...they will gladly take what we won't/don't. So By converting to electricity you really create more issues than any resolution of a problem. The disposal of dead batteries is high on the problem list as well as many other problems that are generated by a change over. I think electric as well as many other fuels sources have a place, but electricity is not a saviour by any means. If you think rolling blackouts are bad now, just imagine all the ones created by the switch to electric cars.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:16 PM
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I was fortunate enough this spring to attend the largest hydrogen conference in the world. I also drove the 760 platform hydrogen BMW. They have several different hydrogen based designs. They have mastered running internal combustion engines (ICE) on liquid and gaseous hydrogen. The one I drove was a gasoline hybrid design. It had a range of 600 miles using hydrogen and then at the flip of a switch runs another 300 miles on gasoline. It was V-12 at about 300 HP. The technology is sound and if our government knew how to transcend the dino economy (or if they wanted to), to hydrogen we could easily do so. The only draw backs is no fueling infrastructure (again thanks to our government) and the steam methane reformation process to make hydrogen also makes tons of CO2.

Currently there are 12 hydrogen filling stations in California and a few others around the country; Orlando, Albany NY, DC.

I will post some pictures later.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:40 PM
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T Boone Pickens

Natural gas is a extremely easy way to run a gasoline or diesel engine. We had ng in the 80,s and 90,s The governments (oil companies) did not like us burning something other than oil products so they deregulated. This killed the natural gas . Welcome to 2008 , now gas is 2 and a half what it was when I had natural gas in my Impala. With ng the entire continent could be off the gas in a few years. The worlds biggest home fill up compressor designer is in Ontario yet we see virtually no sales in Canada. Go to T Boons site and he will make it clear . The oil companies are screwing us and we should fight back. Ps. Natural gas has a real high octane rating . Can you say supercharger? Clint
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodz428
I think your reasoning is full of holes on many, many levels. Firstly most of electricity in this country is produced from oil. If you generate and lose effeciency you will be getting the same amount of oil consumption ( actually more) than if you used it for an engine. Not exactly something to cause an "oil glut". Also, we are no longer the biggest purchaser of oil. Every developing nation is in the market, so the demand won't drop...they will gladly take what we won't/don't. So By converting to electricity you really create more issues than any resolution of a problem. The disposal of dead batteries is high on the problem list as well as many other problems that are generated by a change over. I think electric as well as many other fuels sources have a place, but electricity is not a saviour by any means. If you think rolling blackouts are bad now, just imagine all the ones created by the switch to electric cars.
Err, no, not according to the DOE that is;


2005__ 122 Gigiwatts were produced with ALL liquid fuels.

2005__316 Gigiwatts were produced with Natural gas.

2005__314 Gigiwatts were produced with Coal.

The projections for 2010 look worse.

Click here for DOE link.
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930u
I was fortunate enough this spring to attend the largest hydrogen conference in the world. I also drove the 760 platform hydrogen BMW. They have several different hydrogen based designs. They have mastered running internal combustion engines (ICE) on liquid and gaseous hydrogen. The one I drove was a gasoline hybrid design. It had a range of 600 miles using hydrogen and then at the flip of a switch runs another 300 miles on gasoline. It was V-12 at about 300 HP. The technology is sound and if our government knew how to transcend the dino economy (or if they wanted to), to hydrogen we could easily do so. The only draw backs is no fueling infrastructure (again thanks to our government) and the steam methane reformation process to make hydrogen also makes tons of CO2.

Currently there are 12 hydrogen filling stations in California and a few others around the country; Orlando, Albany NY, DC.

I will post some pictures later.
Fueling an engine on hydrogen is no trick, even Ford figured that out. The rest of your commentary doesn't seem to connect. The problem is getting hydrogen which you seem to acknowledge with the steam reformation processes issues statement. If not that energy consumptive process, then what is the magic, cheap, non polluting process the goverment can't seem to come up with. And why is a lack of fueling stations a problem when we can't even afford to make the stuff. It's still cheaper both economically and environmentally to burn dino fuel directly in an engine than it is to convert the raw fuel stock to hydrogen and a bunch of pollution and then burn the hydrogen in an engine.

The whole scenero doesn't make sense.

Bogie
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:52 PM
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Charades

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930u
I was fortunate enough this spring to attend the largest hydrogen conference in the world. I also drove the 760 platform hydrogen BMW. They have several different hydrogen based designs. They have mastered running internal combustion engines (ICE) on liquid and gaseous hydrogen. The one I drove was a gasoline hybrid design. It had a range of 600 miles using hydrogen and then at the flip of a switch runs another 300 miles on gasoline. It was V-12 at about 300 HP. The technology is sound and if our government knew how to transcend the dino economy (or if they wanted to), to hydrogen we could easily do so. The only draw backs is no fueling infrastructure (again thanks to our government) and the steam methane reformation process to make hydrogen also makes tons of CO2.

Currently there are 12 hydrogen filling stations in California and a few others around the country; Orlando, Albany NY, DC.

I will post some pictures later.
California law mandates that by 2010 the H2 "Hydrogen Highway" will be in place. Just think, a H2 fill-up station will be located within 20 miles of your home.

Here is the California .GOV site that will map you to the closest station near you. Just enter a ZIP code & it will show you the stations in your area. Helpful if you are planning a vacation because it will allow you to find every station withing 500 miles!

Under the map is a click able icon that also shows the stations in development.

I love California... leading the rest of the states into the future!

Click here for H2 stations!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:58 PM
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Television, ya have got to love it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by price
<Snipped stuff> Go to T Boons site and he will make it clear . The oil companies are screwing us and we should fight back. Ps. Natural gas has a real high octane rating . Can you say supercharger? Clint
Clint? I take it you don't get out much?

Stuff has been reported in Newsweek, and elsewhere. You need to see!

Click here

Last edited by DENCOUCH; 08-25-2008 at 11:11 PM. Reason: Spelling... must be the keyboard
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
California law mandates that by 2010 the H2 "Hydrogen Highway" will be in place. Just think, a H2 fill-up station will be located within 20 miles of your home.

Here is the California .GOV site that will map you to the closest station near you. Just enter a ZIP code & it will show you the stations in your area. Helpful if you are planning a vacation because it will allow you to find every station withing 500 miles!

Under the map is a click able icon that also shows the stations in development.

I love California... leading the rest of the states into the future!

Click here for H2 stations!
More likely California is like Seattle run by clueless politicians who think anything can happen by simple saying, "make it so".

Bogie
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:04 PM
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Ohhh! you clicked, did you!

I know Bogie, I could not find a single open station!

I entertained myself by looking for stations under development.

Nada, zilch, nothing.

They had better get hopping on it because time is running out. I am sure they don't want to remind us of how 25% of the cars offered for sale by the year 2000 were mandated by law...

...to be electric.

What was that woman politician's name, you know, the one that said if she was voted in, would get us out of the war?

Where was she from?

Last edited by DENCOUCH; 08-25-2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Spelling... I wear glasses
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:44 PM
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GM EV1 Home Page - Who killed the electric car

If you don't have to fill it and it needs little maintenance...they won't build it.

Simple economics really, think of all the people who would be out of work because of an electric car.

It would be a disaster.

After seeing the performance of the Tesla electric sports car I really am thinking that building an economy version at home is within the average advanced hotrodders scope. Who cares about going 150mph with it, getting groceries and running errands is what interests me.

Wanna bet that if I tried to purchase a crate load of lithium ion batteries for the project I would get onto someones "watch" list.

Anyone else remember Smokey Yunicks Adiabatic Engine? Before he died he tried to sell the idea as a kit because none of the big three were interested in his methods, needless to say when he tried to patent the kit he was immediately hit with lawsuits from the big three over patent infringments.

Basically corporate lawyers run the world and unless a big corporation is going to profit enormously from the idea it won't be produced and they will sue anyone (into oblivion) who tries to do it.

Can anyone tell me why we have to convert energy from form to another for it to be viable?

Oh right...intermediate profit!

Anyone else remember Robert Kearns, the guy who invented the intermitent wiper? Not sure I want to end up like that poor guy. Rich and dead is not my idea of a good time.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Your rolling blackouts, brownouts in the US are casued by poor local regional mantanience sheduling not lack of capacity.
I thought that was Enron's fault? Is this still an issue in the US?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
and what effect might that be? I was under the understanding that a Catalyst was not consumed during the process, and was an expediter. Think Catalytic Converter. H2 as a catalyst cannot perform as a catalyst and create energy that was not there to begin with. It could reactively change the compounds that currently exist in the combustion chamber, but what would be changed that would release hidden horsepower? The same could be said for the heat of combustion, huh.

I dunno about H2 having a "Catalytic" effect on anything.. except maybe as an expediter of cash from your pocket, to a huckster's.

The theory is.....H increases the burn rate so the fuel (gas) is more completely burned so therefore increases power out per unit of fuel.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 08:43 AM
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Cool theory

Now, if science would only invent a contraption to measure HP output of an engine. Why, this effect could even be measured!
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 09:42 AM
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Would you want a highly volatile gas put in a tank under pressure in your car. Second H2 likes to combine with O making water, how do you keep contamination down. Every time you fill up with H2 you would be introducing a percent of contamination. No matter what you do there will be a certain amount of contamination introduce to the H2, from the plant to your car. Is every car on the road going to have a hazmat sticker on them? What about the training needed for people to work on these H2 systems installed in these cars, or the training needed by emergency personal when a accident happens?
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:06 PM
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Don,t get out

I went to the newsweek site and it was not about fuel and I only mention Pickens because he is doing instead of talking. The facts are that we have almost unlimited ng in many forms including renewable sources. I ran a 350 Chev in a 1981 Impala from 1989 till 1995 and when I tore down the engine the cross hatch was still in good shape. This fuel is coming back in the ports on the west coast in order to reduce smog. It is ony a matter of time till we get pumps for our homes. Liquid ng is really good because the massive amount of btus squeezed in a small container. If there wasn,t millions of cars around the globe already on this fuel I would be more sceptical.
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