Some hydrogen questions for those who know - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 08:00 PM
DENCOUCH's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Age: 67
Posts: 409
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by 454C10
Using nuclear power to make H2 from water seems to be a good option. Unlimited supply of both.

Burning only H2 is a whole different animal as compared to adding a little H2 to a gas mixture.

Adding H2 (from an on board generator) to a gas mixture increases the burn rate of gas which makes the engine more efficient (in theory). Yes, making enough btu's in H2 from water doesn't work from a +12V H2 generator. But, it isn't the btu's that makes the car more efficient, the catalyst effect of the H2 on fuel is what they are after.
and what effect might that be? I was under the understanding that a Catalyst was not consumed during the process, and was an expediter. Think Catalytic Converter. H2 as a catalyst cannot perform as a catalyst and create energy that was not there to begin with. It could reactively change the compounds that currently exist in the combustion chamber, but what would be changed that would release hidden horsepower? The same could be said for the heat of combustion, huh.

I dunno about H2 having a "Catalytic" effect on anything.. except maybe as an expediter of cash from your pocket, to a huckster's.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 09:27 PM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Hand cleaner Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston
Posts: 170
Wiki Edits: 3

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
a couple of things i think are relevant to this that i am posting first, this one is off topic, a high fuel mileage gasoline powered car,
http://www.fuelvaporcar.com/

this one isn't really off topic, it could be used to charge electric cars, but its also relevant to hydrogen generation.
cheap solar cells,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0405171830.htm


now on to what is talked about in this thread.
nuclear power still has its problems, the transport & storage of the used fuel, both of which are expensive & dangerous.

electric cars also have their short falls, running the air conditioner takes a lot of power. here in the south A/C is pretty much mandatory in your car, unless you can take sitting in traffic on a 100 degree day with 90+ percent humidity for 2~4 months of the year. so your talking about very short run times.
charge times can also be a problem if your taking a long trip.

ethanol really isn't a long term remedy, its a temporary patch at best.

about hydrogen,
at first i didn't like the ideal of hydrogen powered cars on the road.
the Hindenburg really didn't come to mind for me, i learned in school that it was more than just the hydrogen that caused the fire. to me the Hindenburg is just an example of fine german engineering
for me, i couldn't get the images of a tanker truck carrying a full tank of hydrogen crashing off an overpass. say like here in Houston on 59 south right at the baseball stadium during a ball game. but i learned of hydride tanks that can transport & store hydrogen more safely than gasoline.

3. Can conversions be made to existing vehicles once a viable system is found?
yes. and the viable hydrogen system is prototyped right now.
you can even leave your gasoline tank & all its components on your car & power it from the gasoline at any time. in fact it would be best to keep the gasoline fuel system fully intact just in case you run out of hydrogen.

where to get/how to make hydrogen.
generate it in your own back yard using solar power.
how can these things done?

http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

*edit for broken link*

Last edited by Soul_Hunter; 08-25-2008 at 09:33 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 09:59 PM
woodz428's Avatar
Troll Hunter
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Philo,Il
Posts: 2,702
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
It does not matter if energy conversion to electricty is 100% efficitiant.
Electriclty is efficient enough. The inforstructure and generating capacity exists already (most charging will be done at night off peak time.)
Electricity is produced by many sources, Nuclear, hydro wind solar, natural gas, coal and oil. Reducing the use of gasoline in north america by just 20% by diersifying the fuel used to power your daily use car. By you haveing a choice in the market place, will cause such a world glut of oil supply that the price will plumet. When oil is cheap it does not matter who owns it, its just another commodity in the market and you can't eat it. The only thing oil is absolutely required for is modern mechanized warfare. You are right on about we being addicted to oil and big heavy cars. There is no sound reason why a modern hi perf sporty car
(2010 Camaro, 2009 Challenger) has to weight as much as a 1975 Cordoba (slug tank pig) Take 1000lbs out of it and install a 150hp electric motor and you got a fun fun ride.
When they perfect the matter anti matter engine we can all switch.

GM FORD and Chrysler need to get with the program or go the way of the dinasaur. This is the new melleneum Hot RoD
I think your reasoning is full of holes on many, many levels. Firstly most of electricity in this country is produced from oil. If you generate and lose effeciency you will be getting the same amount of oil consumption ( actually more) than if you used it for an engine. Not exactly something to cause an "oil glut". Also, we are no longer the biggest purchaser of oil. Every developing nation is in the market, so the demand won't drop...they will gladly take what we won't/don't. So By converting to electricity you really create more issues than any resolution of a problem. The disposal of dead batteries is high on the problem list as well as many other problems that are generated by a change over. I think electric as well as many other fuels sources have a place, but electricity is not a saviour by any means. If you think rolling blackouts are bad now, just imagine all the ones created by the switch to electric cars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:16 PM
1930u's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 1930u Windows are in
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2007
Location: midwest
Posts: 637
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I was fortunate enough this spring to attend the largest hydrogen conference in the world. I also drove the 760 platform hydrogen BMW. They have several different hydrogen based designs. They have mastered running internal combustion engines (ICE) on liquid and gaseous hydrogen. The one I drove was a gasoline hybrid design. It had a range of 600 miles using hydrogen and then at the flip of a switch runs another 300 miles on gasoline. It was V-12 at about 300 HP. The technology is sound and if our government knew how to transcend the dino economy (or if they wanted to), to hydrogen we could easily do so. The only draw backs is no fueling infrastructure (again thanks to our government) and the steam methane reformation process to make hydrogen also makes tons of CO2.

Currently there are 12 hydrogen filling stations in California and a few others around the country; Orlando, Albany NY, DC.

I will post some pictures later.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:40 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Kamloops B.C.
Posts: 231
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
T Boone Pickens

Natural gas is a extremely easy way to run a gasoline or diesel engine. We had ng in the 80,s and 90,s The governments (oil companies) did not like us burning something other than oil products so they deregulated. This killed the natural gas . Welcome to 2008 , now gas is 2 and a half what it was when I had natural gas in my Impala. With ng the entire continent could be off the gas in a few years. The worlds biggest home fill up compressor designer is in Ontario yet we see virtually no sales in Canada. Go to T Boons site and he will make it clear . The oil companies are screwing us and we should fight back. Ps. Natural gas has a real high octane rating . Can you say supercharger? Clint
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:43 PM
DENCOUCH's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Age: 67
Posts: 409
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Info

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodz428
I think your reasoning is full of holes on many, many levels. Firstly most of electricity in this country is produced from oil. If you generate and lose effeciency you will be getting the same amount of oil consumption ( actually more) than if you used it for an engine. Not exactly something to cause an "oil glut". Also, we are no longer the biggest purchaser of oil. Every developing nation is in the market, so the demand won't drop...they will gladly take what we won't/don't. So By converting to electricity you really create more issues than any resolution of a problem. The disposal of dead batteries is high on the problem list as well as many other problems that are generated by a change over. I think electric as well as many other fuels sources have a place, but electricity is not a saviour by any means. If you think rolling blackouts are bad now, just imagine all the ones created by the switch to electric cars.
Err, no, not according to the DOE that is;


2005__ 122 Gigiwatts were produced with ALL liquid fuels.

2005__316 Gigiwatts were produced with Natural gas.

2005__314 Gigiwatts were produced with Coal.

The projections for 2010 look worse.

Click here for DOE link.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:51 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 7,025
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 516 Times in 436 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930u
I was fortunate enough this spring to attend the largest hydrogen conference in the world. I also drove the 760 platform hydrogen BMW. They have several different hydrogen based designs. They have mastered running internal combustion engines (ICE) on liquid and gaseous hydrogen. The one I drove was a gasoline hybrid design. It had a range of 600 miles using hydrogen and then at the flip of a switch runs another 300 miles on gasoline. It was V-12 at about 300 HP. The technology is sound and if our government knew how to transcend the dino economy (or if they wanted to), to hydrogen we could easily do so. The only draw backs is no fueling infrastructure (again thanks to our government) and the steam methane reformation process to make hydrogen also makes tons of CO2.

Currently there are 12 hydrogen filling stations in California and a few others around the country; Orlando, Albany NY, DC.

I will post some pictures later.
Fueling an engine on hydrogen is no trick, even Ford figured that out. The rest of your commentary doesn't seem to connect. The problem is getting hydrogen which you seem to acknowledge with the steam reformation processes issues statement. If not that energy consumptive process, then what is the magic, cheap, non polluting process the goverment can't seem to come up with. And why is a lack of fueling stations a problem when we can't even afford to make the stuff. It's still cheaper both economically and environmentally to burn dino fuel directly in an engine than it is to convert the raw fuel stock to hydrogen and a bunch of pollution and then burn the hydrogen in an engine.

The whole scenero doesn't make sense.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:52 PM
DENCOUCH's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Age: 67
Posts: 409
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Charades

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1930u
I was fortunate enough this spring to attend the largest hydrogen conference in the world. I also drove the 760 platform hydrogen BMW. They have several different hydrogen based designs. They have mastered running internal combustion engines (ICE) on liquid and gaseous hydrogen. The one I drove was a gasoline hybrid design. It had a range of 600 miles using hydrogen and then at the flip of a switch runs another 300 miles on gasoline. It was V-12 at about 300 HP. The technology is sound and if our government knew how to transcend the dino economy (or if they wanted to), to hydrogen we could easily do so. The only draw backs is no fueling infrastructure (again thanks to our government) and the steam methane reformation process to make hydrogen also makes tons of CO2.

Currently there are 12 hydrogen filling stations in California and a few others around the country; Orlando, Albany NY, DC.

I will post some pictures later.
California law mandates that by 2010 the H2 "Hydrogen Highway" will be in place. Just think, a H2 fill-up station will be located within 20 miles of your home.

Here is the California .GOV site that will map you to the closest station near you. Just enter a ZIP code & it will show you the stations in your area. Helpful if you are planning a vacation because it will allow you to find every station withing 500 miles!

Under the map is a click able icon that also shows the stations in development.

I love California... leading the rest of the states into the future!

Click here for H2 stations!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 10:58 PM
DENCOUCH's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Age: 67
Posts: 409
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Television, ya have got to love it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by price
<Snipped stuff> Go to T Boons site and he will make it clear . The oil companies are screwing us and we should fight back. Ps. Natural gas has a real high octane rating . Can you say supercharger? Clint
Clint? I take it you don't get out much?

Stuff has been reported in Newsweek, and elsewhere. You need to see!

Click here

Last edited by DENCOUCH; 08-25-2008 at 11:11 PM. Reason: Spelling... must be the keyboard
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:00 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 7,025
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 516 Times in 436 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
California law mandates that by 2010 the H2 "Hydrogen Highway" will be in place. Just think, a H2 fill-up station will be located within 20 miles of your home.

Here is the California .GOV site that will map you to the closest station near you. Just enter a ZIP code & it will show you the stations in your area. Helpful if you are planning a vacation because it will allow you to find every station withing 500 miles!

Under the map is a click able icon that also shows the stations in development.

I love California... leading the rest of the states into the future!

Click here for H2 stations!
More likely California is like Seattle run by clueless politicians who think anything can happen by simple saying, "make it so".

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:04 PM
DENCOUCH's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Age: 67
Posts: 409
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Ohhh! you clicked, did you!

I know Bogie, I could not find a single open station!

I entertained myself by looking for stations under development.

Nada, zilch, nothing.

They had better get hopping on it because time is running out. I am sure they don't want to remind us of how 25% of the cars offered for sale by the year 2000 were mandated by law...

...to be electric.

What was that woman politician's name, you know, the one that said if she was voted in, would get us out of the war?

Where was she from?

Last edited by DENCOUCH; 08-25-2008 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Spelling... I wear glasses
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 08-25-2008, 11:44 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 5,060
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 107 Times in 86 Posts
GM EV1 Home Page - Who killed the electric car

If you don't have to fill it and it needs little maintenance...they won't build it.

Simple economics really, think of all the people who would be out of work because of an electric car.

It would be a disaster.

After seeing the performance of the Tesla electric sports car I really am thinking that building an economy version at home is within the average advanced hotrodders scope. Who cares about going 150mph with it, getting groceries and running errands is what interests me.

Wanna bet that if I tried to purchase a crate load of lithium ion batteries for the project I would get onto someones "watch" list.

Anyone else remember Smokey Yunicks Adiabatic Engine? Before he died he tried to sell the idea as a kit because none of the big three were interested in his methods, needless to say when he tried to patent the kit he was immediately hit with lawsuits from the big three over patent infringments.

Basically corporate lawyers run the world and unless a big corporation is going to profit enormously from the idea it won't be produced and they will sue anyone (into oblivion) who tries to do it.

Can anyone tell me why we have to convert energy from form to another for it to be viable?

Oh right...intermediate profit!

Anyone else remember Robert Kearns, the guy who invented the intermitent wiper? Not sure I want to end up like that poor guy. Rich and dead is not my idea of a good time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:01 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,211
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 389 Times in 383 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodz428
I think your reasoning is full of holes on many, many levels. Firstly most of electricity in this country is produced from oil. If you generate and lose effeciency you will be getting the same amount of oil consumption ( actually more) than if you used it for an engine. Not exactly something to cause an "oil glut". Also, we are no longer the biggest purchaser of oil. Every developing nation is in the market, so the demand won't drop...they will gladly take what we won't/don't. So By converting to electricity you really create more issues than any resolution of a problem. The disposal of dead batteries is high on the problem list as well as many other problems that are generated by a change over. I think electric as well as many other fuels sources have a place, but electricity is not a saviour by any means. If you think rolling blackouts are bad now, just imagine all the ones created by the switch to electric cars.
Only 3% of electricity generated in the USA is made from petroleum.

The present generating capacity in the US can handle that now. Most recharging will be at night. off peak.
Wind power alone can easily cover this along with increased capacity.
Gasoline refinement also consumes electricity to produce. make less gas , use less electricity. Nothing happens in a vacuum.
Long before gasoline was commonly available, cars ran fine on electricitry and steam. gasoline was and still should be used for cleaning parts. methanol is for racing, ethanol is for celibrating after the race and elecricity is for daily driving. "Live better, electricly".

Your rolling blackouts, brownouts in the US are caused by poor local regional mantanience sheduling and a north/south design electric grid instead of east/west, not lack of capacity.
Solar and wind power requires the flexability of a north american north south, east west electric grid. This can be done. But local power companies will resist as with a east/west north american grid southern Californians will be able to buy electricity generated from the US midwest/ Canadian praires ( wind power and all the way from north Labrador Canada (one of the most windy spots on the planet. (Huge wind power potential)
A nation/international North American energy plan is required. Mexico has a huge solar generating potential.

check out the red zones on these wind and solar generation potential maps.

http://www.windatlas.ca/en/maps.php
http://www.solar4power.com/map3-global-solar-power.html
Hello can you say diversified reliable, renewable clean energy source.
I bet you can!
Its always windy and sunny somewhere in North America.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-26-2008 at 01:41 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 01:08 AM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 5,060
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 107 Times in 86 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Your rolling blackouts, brownouts in the US are casued by poor local regional mantanience sheduling not lack of capacity.
I thought that was Enron's fault? Is this still an issue in the US?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2008, 02:09 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,211
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 389 Times in 383 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXGKBTTM09o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRVaZ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9flS...eature=related

hello

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 08-26-2008 at 02:53 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Paint Questions gator412 Body - Exterior 18 10-02-2006 04:40 PM
ANSWERS TO COMMON QUESTIONS -- PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING Jon Hotrodders Site Suggestions and Help 0 07-07-2005 04:58 PM
why not radial engines? inspiron Hotrodders' Lounge 34 06-11-2005 11:56 AM
Questions, questions, questions? slider in wa Transmission - Rearend 2 09-27-2003 03:01 PM
Nuts, Bolts and stripping questions Bluepen Body - Exterior 5 08-14-2003 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.