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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
Man is that the truth... I seen some people just like that....On the forum's..
not kidding, true story. this guy would always have all the right answers on his site and so when you paint a visual in your head about the guy you see an expert...but his work spoke a different tune.

video isn't perfect either. you can edit it and leave out stuff.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 08:33 AM
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not kidding, true story. this guy would always have all the right answers on his site and so when you paint a visual in your head about the guy you see an expert...but his work spoke a different tune.

video isn't perfect either. you can edit it and leave out stuff.
believe me...I know what your talking about...
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:26 AM
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not kidding, true story. this guy would always have all the right answers on his site and so when you paint a visual in your head about the guy you see an expert...but his work spoke a different tune.

video isn't perfect either. you can edit it and leave out stuff.
Thanks for all the response guys...One of the first things I learned about sales at an early age was, if the competition or there product screws up screws up, bounce and take advantage of that situation. What took me a bit a longer to learn was that when I screwed up or the customer felt that I or the product that I was representing screwed up, I needed to pounce that much quicker and try and turn a bad situation into a positive. This is probably a bit tougher, it's easy to look at competition and say they screwed up, it's harder to look in the mirror and say you screwed up, to tell someone that they are about to screw up before they do, often results in lost relationships, and bitter feelings on both sides and can turn into a loose-loose situation. I'm hoping to avoid the last scenario.

Henry, you are so right...all videos show is the best parts and hopefully the important parts...I'll be the first to say that there are many people that I'm sure would have better skills than I would at using the equipment that I'm going to be using...there are people that are posting on this thread that could, would and can do a better job, a faster job than I can, that's another reason why I'm making the patch panel before hand. It just so happened that I was blessed with an old Buick that I know deserved a better fate then what it was getting. I'm not the fastest, but, when it's done, it fits and there is minimal filler and, like Henry said....the parts that show I'm slow...will be edited...LOL.

I want to show the people attending, the basics of how metal works, how to use an English wheel and how to work metal. No one can do metal work properly unless they have an understanding of how metal works...and having that knowledge makes working with the tools much easier. I guess the good thing is that I have more experience than the people that are going to be there and hopefully I can instill some fundamentals.

A lot of these guys are well to do, some retired and have cars that range from the common to the damn near ultra rare (I know a 41 Cadillac Darrin Convertible isn't ultra rare but you should see this one, and all original). The club has over 300 members and to get about 7% on short notice shocked me. I'm actually looking forward to this, I know it may sound strange but, I've always enjoyed public speaking and here I'll have a small captive audience for at least 4 hours for 2 nights.

Ray
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 10:59 AM
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Thanks for all the response guys...One of the first things I learned about sales at an early age was, if the competition or there product screws up screws up, bounce and take advantage of that situation. What took me a bit a longer to learn was that when I screwed up or the customer felt that I or the product that I was representing screwed up, I needed to pounce that much quicker and try and turn a bad situation into a positive. This is probably a bit tougher, it's easy to look at competition and say they screwed up, it's harder to look in the mirror and say you screwed up, to tell someone that they are about to screw up before they do, often results in lost relationships, and bitter feelings on both sides and can turn into a loose-loose situation. I'm hoping to avoid the last scenario.

Henry, you are so right...all videos show is the best parts and hopefully the important parts...I'll be the first to say that there are many people that I'm sure would have better skills than I would at using the equipment that I'm going to be using...there are people that are posting on this thread that could, would and can do a better job, a faster job than I can, that's another reason why I'm making the patch panel before hand. It just so happened that I was blessed with an old Buick that I know deserved a better fate then what it was getting. I'm not the fastest, but, when it's done, it fits and there is minimal filler and, like Henry said....the parts that show I'm slow...will be edited...LOL.

I want to show the people attending, the basics of how metal works, how to use an English wheel and how to work metal. No one can do metal work properly unless they have an understanding of how metal works...and having that knowledge makes working with the tools much easier. I guess the good thing is that I have more experience than the people that are going to be there and hopefully I can instill some fundamentals.

A lot of these guys are well to do, some retired and have cars that range from the common to the damn near ultra rare (I know a 41 Cadillac Darrin Convertible isn't ultra rare but you should see this one, and all original). The club has over 300 members and to get about 7% on short notice shocked me. I'm actually looking forward to this, I know it may sound strange but, I've always enjoyed public speaking and here I'll have a small captive audience for at least 4 hours for 2 nights.

Ray
I would love to be there to learn as well... Never can learn to much... I do what your about to do at our high school every year with cars... It's a great feeling to see how many care that you took the time to show them.... I love doing it as well... Kids want to know... Here's a few shot's of my time... The funny thing when I started doing this was,, The very first class was about 20 kids,,, By the end of the day it turned into 6 class's all together..

I love doing this for them kids.. If I could I would go to every school I could..
Very rewarding to give something back..





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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:21 PM
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Ray,
That is a fantastic solution. That will truly be win-win-win. You fix a sticky situation, they guy gets his car fixed, and learns how to do it better, and everyone else gets a great class of the deal! Making a video of it is a great idea.

A class like that would cost me a fortune, because then I would need to buy a wheel, shear, brake, et cetera, et cetera.

Nicely done Ray.

Bob
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 01:28 PM
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Thanks for all the response guys...One of the first things I learned about sales at an early age was, if the competition or there product screws up screws up, bounce and take advantage of that situation. What took me a bit a longer to learn was that when I screwed up or the customer felt that I or the product that I was representing screwed up, I needed to pounce that much quicker and try and turn a bad situation into a positive. This is probably a bit tougher, it's easy to look at competition and say they screwed up, it's harder to look in the mirror and say you screwed up, to tell someone that they are about to screw up before they do, often results in lost relationships, and bitter feelings on both sides and can turn into a loose-loose situation. I'm hoping to avoid the last scenario.

Henry, you are so right...all videos show is the best parts and hopefully the important parts...I'll be the first to say that there are many people that I'm sure would have better skills than I would at using the equipment that I'm going to be using...there are people that are posting on this thread that could, would and can do a better job, a faster job than I can, that's another reason why I'm making the patch panel before hand. It just so happened that I was blessed with an old Buick that I know deserved a better fate then what it was getting. I'm not the fastest, but, when it's done, it fits and there is minimal filler and, like Henry said....the parts that show I'm slow...will be edited...LOL.

I want to show the people attending, the basics of how metal works, how to use an English wheel and how to work metal. No one can do metal work properly unless they have an understanding of how metal works...and having that knowledge makes working with the tools much easier. I guess the good thing is that I have more experience than the people that are going to be there and hopefully I can instill some fundamentals.

A lot of these guys are well to do, some retired and have cars that range from the common to the damn near ultra rare (I know a 41 Cadillac Darrin Convertible isn't ultra rare but you should see this one, and all original). The club has over 300 members and to get about 7% on short notice shocked me. I'm actually looking forward to this, I know it may sound strange but, I've always enjoyed public speaking and here I'll have a small captive audience for at least 4 hours for 2 nights.

Ray
if you have spent the time to get good at that style of REAL metal work than there's no doubt you deserve every minute of that time to teach others. Must be nice to be that good.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:58 PM
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Shame your so far from me... I would sure be there to watch you work that metal into shape... Maybe I'll hit the lottery and fly up..
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:17 PM
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if you have spent the time to get good at that style of REAL metal work than there's no doubt you deserve every minute of that time to teach others. Must be nice to be that good.
..

I wouldn't say I'm that good...probably a better word to use would be that I'm that particular. I have spent time on equipment and I don't feel for one minute that I have any one piece of equipment mastered. I've seen the videos of the guys that can build a fender from scratch, design and build an entire car from raw material...in reality, I'm making a repair panel for an old car...and the guys that can do all those wonderful things, those are the people that I would love to see in a classroom setting teaching me. Like I said, I haven't mastered any piece of equipment, in this case I don't think it's about deserving time to teach others. I feel as though I'm passing on some knowledge that I have to people that are interested enough to sit through a few hours and hopefully use what they have learned and in the process I feel I'm helping somebody out on a personal level.

I will say, I feel that I am a better painter than I am a metal or body man, I still care and need to know how each part of the trade works enough to be able to do it and hopefully do it right. I'm not as fast at metal work as many people are, I may have to go over certain things more often than other people. When it comes to painting, I'm still learning and always will. As long as there are new materials coming out, new and innovative pieces of equipment, errors being made by manufacturer's (ie. variances on colors, just poor quality control...etc.), errors made by myself and others, there will be room to learn and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Ray
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2013, 04:38 PM
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Shame your so far from me... I would sure be there to watch you work that metal into shape... Maybe I'll hit the lottery and fly up..

I don't know how far away that is Randy, from your information, your located in your shop...LOL.

Randy, you hit that lottery, get up here and I'll hand the wheel over to you. I've seen what you've built and how long it took you...I worked on my patch panel a bit today and I wouldn't be surprised if by the time I had that patch panel made, you would've turned that old Buick into a 2013 model...LOL. I think from what I've seen, it'd be money better spent if I went to your shop for a tutorial.

Ray
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:10 PM
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I don't know how far away that is Randy, from your information, your located in your shop...LOL.

Randy, you hit that lottery, get up here and I'll hand the wheel over to you. I've seen what you've built and how long it took you...I worked on my patch panel a bit today and I wouldn't be surprised if by the time I had that patch panel made, you would've turned that old Buick into a 2013 model...LOL. I think from what I've seen, it'd be money better spent if I went to your shop for a tutorial.

Ray
Well !!!! I'll be the first to say,, With all you see me do I never had my hands on a English wheel before.. Been wanting to add one to my many tools I do have.. But never did....

So I know it could be a plus for both of us I'm sure... I know how they work and what they can do,, But I have to say you might just have me on this one.. One day I will have one..

I'm a little too far from you way down south of Louisiana.. Coona** country....

I'm sure I would learn a lot from you,, You been here longer then me.. You older guys have a few tricks us younger guy's don't know about.. I'm sure it would be fun to find out...

Thanks for all the kind words..
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:24 PM
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Randy look into one of those wheel kits where you would make the rest. You could make an awesome "frame" or what ever they call them. So there is no reason to buy a whole wheel already made. I didn't have the money to get a big one and bought a small "bench mount", big mistake. It is crap and even when I bought a new lower wheel and had a machine shop put bearings in it for me it didn't make it much good, it teased me showing me how it can make a crown but certainly not a pro tool in the least bit. Look into it and put it on your must get list, even my junk one allowed me to make a few panels (though far from filler free) that I couldn't have made without it.

Brian
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:13 PM
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I will either make one or buy the one from Harbor freight and give it a little touch up..

For the price of everything I could buy the one from HF and make it better,, I will have one..
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:59 AM
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Just got back from test fitting the replacement/repair/patch panel I wheeled at the shop...not to bad but it will need some fine tuning. I tried to use the wheel he had and it would work, however, it's kind of like the difference in DA's, you know the one that if your not careful it'll rip one of your fingers off or that real smooth quiet one that just leaves tiny swirl marks. Well that's the difference in wheels, the one I have is old, it's heavy, but I find it tracks a lot smoother, I have more control and does leave a better finish on the metal. I explained this to the owner of the Buick and he asked if it would be to much trouble to bring mine down...it's loaded on the truck now...It'll help with 27 people...make that 29 people, I guess several people wanted to bring their wives, or their wife wanted to come, which I think is awesome, so we now have 10 groups of 3. With 2 wheels it'll make the whole process easier and I can finish the panel I started on the wheel I'm most comfortable with. All of the smaller panels for the people attending have been cut, people have been told to bring their own gloves, my 3M guy donated safety glasses and coffee and donuts will be served.

This afternoon I'm going to put everything down in point form that I want to talk about and show. I find this works a lot better than having everything written down in a formal rigid setting. there's always questions and this way it's easier to get back on track. I found this out about 10 years ago, I was asked to speak to a freshman class at a local college. I was told that the evening would be about 1 1/2 hours in total, there would be 3 speakers and I would be the first one up. I figured, 3 speakers, 1 1/2 hours...that gives me 1/2 hour of time, just write down 20 points, 1 1/2 minutes per point, there's my 1/2 hour and I'm done. As it turned out, there where 3 guest speakers, a different speaker on 3 nights...I had 1 1/2 hours on my own. If I had written out a 1/2 hour presentation, I would have been screwed, now I had to expand on my 20 points and that worked out well.

I feel I have about 15 minutes of tuning left on the panel (the top of the panel has more of a curve to it than the bottom so a few strategically placed passes should get it done), I was going to have it done, ready to weld but I think it will have more impact if I show where it's out and how a better fit can be achieved using the equipment we have...I'm looking forward to it and it should be interesting.

Randy with your metal working skills, I'm sure that however you get your Wheel, it'll work well. I think using the HF Wheel as a starting point is a great idea. The thing with a lot of the HF equipment is that the basic structure is there and improving on things like the control of the tension and the ability to maintain the tension can be improved on. It's funny you should mention that some older guys have a few tricks, the guy I got my wheel from was that guy, he was amazing and could make anything out of metal and taught me a lot (I've forgotten a lot of what he told me as well, never thought I'd be using it as much as I do...now). He was a machinist by trade and very "old school". When things started to all go CNC he was out of his element and retired. He told me that the craftsmanship was going to go by the wayside with everything being computerized. Not sure if I totally agree with that, you still need to think it, know the principals of what the equipment can do. Maybe what CNC equipment does is take out the personal aspect but it sure improves consistency, time and repeatability.

I would enjoy nothing more than to spend some time with you, from what I've seen, my lesson would be short when it comes to metal working. Metal working equipment is an extension of what you know about how metal works...if you don't understand how metal reacts under different conditions, it doesn't matter what equipment you have, it's not going to work and it's obvious that you have a great understanding of how metal works, getting the hang of an English Wheel wouldn't take you long. Just like the person that sits down at a piano and start playing, they have an in-depth feeling and inner knowledge of music, just the way you do Randy with your trade.

I pride myself on my ability to paint, when it comes to teaching, this is where my real comfort zone would be...As I mentioned before, I don't consider this teaching as much as passing on a little knowledge that hopefully will help other people in the same hobby and in this case the use of tools that otherwise wouldn't be used.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:31 AM
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Just got back from test fitting the replacement/repair/patch panel I wheeled at the shop...not to bad but it will need some fine tuning. I tried to use the wheel he had and it would work, however, it's kind of like the difference in DA's, you know the one that if your not careful it'll rip one of your fingers off or that real smooth quiet one that just leaves tiny swirl marks. Well that's the difference in wheels, the one I have is old, it's heavy, but I find it tracks a lot smoother, I have more control and does leave a better finish on the metal. I explained this to the owner of the Buick and he asked if it would be to much trouble to bring mine down...it's loaded on the truck now...It'll help with 27 people...make that 29 people, I guess several people wanted to bring their wives, or their wife wanted to come, which I think is awesome, so we now have 10 groups of 3. With 2 wheels it'll make the whole process easier and I can finish the panel I started on the wheel I'm most comfortable with. All of the smaller panels for the people attending have been cut, people have been told to bring their own gloves, my 3M guy donated safety glasses and coffee and donuts will be served.

This afternoon I'm going to put everything down in point form that I want to talk about and show. I find this works a lot better than having everything written down in a formal rigid setting. there's always questions and this way it's easier to get back on track. I found this out about 10 years ago, I was asked to speak to a freshman class at a local college. I was told that the evening would be about 1 1/2 hours in total, there would be 3 speakers and I would be the first one up. I figured, 3 speakers, 1 1/2 hours...that gives me 1/2 hour of time, just write down 20 points, 1 1/2 minutes per point, there's my 1/2 hour and I'm done. As it turned out, there where 3 guest speakers, a different speaker on 3 nights...I had 1 1/2 hours on my own. If I had written out a 1/2 hour presentation, I would have been screwed, now I had to expand on my 20 points and that worked out well.

I feel I have about 15 minutes of tuning left on the panel (the top of the panel has more of a curve to it than the bottom so a few strategically placed passes should get it done), I was going to have it done, ready to weld but I think it will have more impact if I show where it's out and how a better fit can be achieved using the equipment we have...I'm looking forward to it and it should be interesting.

Randy with your metal working skills, I'm sure that however you get your Wheel, it'll work well. I think using the HF Wheel as a starting point is a great idea. The thing with a lot of the HF equipment is that the basic structure is there and improving on things like the control of the tension and the ability to maintain the tension can be improved on. It's funny you should mention that some older guys have a few tricks, the guy I got my wheel from was that guy, he was amazing and could make anything out of metal and taught me a lot (I've forgotten a lot of what he told me as well, never thought I'd be using it as much as I do...now). He was a machinist by trade and very "old school". When things started to all go CNC he was out of his element and retired. He told me that the craftsmanship was going to go by the wayside with everything being computerized. Not sure if I totally agree with that, you still need to think it, know the principals of what the equipment can do. Maybe what CNC equipment does is take out the personal aspect but it sure improves consistency, time and repeatability.

I would enjoy nothing more than to spend some time with you, from what I've seen, my lesson would be short when it comes to metal working. Metal working equipment is an extension of what you know about how metal works...if you don't understand how metal reacts under different conditions, it doesn't matter what equipment you have, it's not going to work and it's obvious that you have a great understanding of how metal works, getting the hang of an English Wheel wouldn't take you long. Just like the person that sits down at a piano and start playing, they have an in-depth feeling and inner knowledge of music, just the way you do Randy with your trade.

I pride myself on my ability to paint, when it comes to teaching, this is where my real comfort zone would be...As I mentioned before, I don't consider this teaching as much as passing on a little knowledge that hopefully will help other people in the same hobby and in this case the use of tools that otherwise wouldn't be used.
I had a large box of goodies, videos and weld samples, blown air bags, seat belts, and a pile of other stuff that I used in presentations at my kids classes in elementary school. I found when you go into those classes you have your years of experience and it doesn't take much to fill time with a class room full of students, they will keep you there for hours upon hours! LOL And that's not including the teacher who will always be throwing questions too! Never did a high school auto shop, I don't have any kids at a school where there is one so I have missed out. But between Boy Scouts and elementary schools I have been able to enjoy doing this as well.

Brian
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Just got back from test fitting the replacement/repair/patch panel I wheeled at the shop...not to bad but it will need some fine tuning. I tried to use the wheel he had and it would work, however, it's kind of like the difference in DA's, you know the one that if your not careful it'll rip one of your fingers off or that real smooth quiet one that just leaves tiny swirl marks. Well that's the difference in wheels, the one I have is old, it's heavy, but I find it tracks a lot smoother, I have more control and does leave a better finish on the metal. I explained this to the owner of the Buick and he asked if it would be to much trouble to bring mine down...it's loaded on the truck now...It'll help with 27 people...make that 29 people, I guess several people wanted to bring their wives, or their wife wanted to come, which I think is awesome, so we now have 10 groups of 3. With 2 wheels it'll make the whole process easier and I can finish the panel I started on the wheel I'm most comfortable with. All of the smaller panels for the people attending have been cut, people have been told to bring their own gloves, my 3M guy donated safety glasses and coffee and donuts will be served.

This afternoon I'm going to put everything down in point form that I want to talk about and show. I find this works a lot better than having everything written down in a formal rigid setting. there's always questions and this way it's easier to get back on track. I found this out about 10 years ago, I was asked to speak to a freshman class at a local college. I was told that the evening would be about 1 1/2 hours in total, there would be 3 speakers and I would be the first one up. I figured, 3 speakers, 1 1/2 hours...that gives me 1/2 hour of time, just write down 20 points, 1 1/2 minutes per point, there's my 1/2 hour and I'm done. As it turned out, there where 3 guest speakers, a different speaker on 3 nights...I had 1 1/2 hours on my own. If I had written out a 1/2 hour presentation, I would have been screwed, now I had to expand on my 20 points and that worked out well.

I feel I have about 15 minutes of tuning left on the panel (the top of the panel has more of a curve to it than the bottom so a few strategically placed passes should get it done), I was going to have it done, ready to weld but I think it will have more impact if I show where it's out and how a better fit can be achieved using the equipment we have...I'm looking forward to it and it should be interesting.

Randy with your metal working skills, I'm sure that however you get your Wheel, it'll work well. I think using the HF Wheel as a starting point is a great idea. The thing with a lot of the HF equipment is that the basic structure is there and improving on things like the control of the tension and the ability to maintain the tension can be improved on. It's funny you should mention that some older guys have a few tricks, the guy I got my wheel from was that guy, he was amazing and could make anything out of metal and taught me a lot (I've forgotten a lot of what he told me as well, never thought I'd be using it as much as I do...now). He was a machinist by trade and very "old school". When things started to all go CNC he was out of his element and retired. He told me that the craftsmanship was going to go by the wayside with everything being computerized. Not sure if I totally agree with that, you still need to think it, know the principals of what the equipment can do. Maybe what CNC equipment does is take out the personal aspect but it sure improves consistency, time and repeatability.

I would enjoy nothing more than to spend some time with you, from what I've seen, my lesson would be short when it comes to metal working. Metal working equipment is an extension of what you know about how metal works...if you don't understand how metal reacts under different conditions, it doesn't matter what equipment you have, it's not going to work and it's obvious that you have a great understanding of how metal works, getting the hang of an English Wheel wouldn't take you long. Just like the person that sits down at a piano and start playing, they have an in-depth feeling and inner knowledge of music, just the way you do Randy with your trade.

I pride myself on my ability to paint, when it comes to teaching, this is where my real comfort zone would be...As I mentioned before, I don't consider this teaching as much as passing on a little knowledge that hopefully will help other people in the same hobby and in this case the use of tools that otherwise wouldn't be used.
Sounds like your ready,, Sure would have like to sit in,, But I can't,, You have a great plan ahead of you and will work out great for not just one but a hand full...

As far as the metal,, I under stand a lot about it,, Been around metal all my life,,, I started out welding first,, Mastered that and it wasn't a challenge anymore,, Walked away from it to learn more, Started fitting and pipefitting,, Mastered that too and moved on....

Then they made me a boss over other man But I learnt that I had to be doing something with may hands,, Building things,, I walked away from being a boss at one of the biggest boat Company's in the world,,

They seen what I could do and moved me into the aluminum shop,, Less then a year I was the # 1 man doing ALL the alum work for this Company,, I then moved up to Building Only things for the Guy that own the company,, I even Invented a tool for him,, I was building deer feeder and bar-b-que pit's for him and all the boat's he owned,, Also build things like a big stand to hold his fish up so they could take pictures of them... I guess when you want something and have all the money you'll ever need,, You can do what you want,, Great Company,,You can see some of his boat's on the history Channel sometimes,, They are all over the world..

I think it will take some time to learn the wheel, But I think I would pick it up fast,,, I did achieve all I set out to learn,, I don't just try to learn it,, I push very hard to master it when I do something,,There is only one thing I COULDN'T LEARN... The piano !!!! I gave up after a 100 try's... It's something I always wanted to learn and never could... IT is the ONLY thing that took me down in Life..
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