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Old 04-17-2013, 10:15 PM
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Somebody is doing things wrong with lead, how do I get through to him?

Do you guys wanna hear a story that's funny and sad at the same time?

I know this guy that, well he's a do it your selfer...and that's cool...He knows that I've done a few early Fords in the last few years and he belongs to the same club that I did 2 of these old cars for. I went to a meeting for the club about 2 years ago and explained how some metal working equipment worked and how to use it...(I only had about an hour and a half so I condensed everything down and tried to hit on the basics). The Q & A got into using lead versus body filler and I thought the whole evening went quite well.

I've kept in touch with quite a few members and about 2 months ago, one of the members called me asked if I'd come and look at a project he was working on, so I did. When I got there I was amazed at all the equipment he'd run out and purchased, English wheel, shrinker stretcher, numerous body hammers, dolly's and everything imaginable for using lead, you name it, he had the makings of a well outfitted shop. He showed me what he had done to this vehicle and so far much of what he had done looked good but he had several questions about the back panel that had been hit quite hard and aftermarket parts for some reason weren't available and wanted to know how to fix it. I explained to him that he had an English Wheel and he could virtually cut out the damaged area and build a patch panel. Gave him a tutorial on how to use it and even took a piece of metal and showed him hoe it works, all seemed good.

Today I got another call from this fellow to come over and take a look at what he had done. I was shocked to say the least. Instead of using his equipment he welded in a piece of straight sheet metal and told me that he would get the curve of the panel by molding it out of lead. We are talking a panel about 36 inches by 36 inches with radius curves that should be all around the flat piece of sheet metal he had just welded in. This didn't seem to concern him, what his concern was, how well body filler stuck to lead. Some areas will have over 1/2 inch of lead work to get the shape of what the panel should look like.

I told him he would be better off to cut out the metal he had just welded in and make a proper repair panel, he got just a little less than furious with the suggestion and told me that he wasn't about to throw 4 hours of cutting metal and welding it into place when he could get what he wanted by using lead. I tried to explain that in the long run, getting the proper repair panel made and then welding it in would be faster, cheaper and the repair would last longer. Tomorrow he's going out, scouring the city for lead...I was speechless and all I could say was well if it doesn't seem to work out the way you planned, give me a call and we'll see what we can do about fixing it.

I don't know if I should send him a sympathy card or a get well card. I'd call it butcher work if the guy was lazy and just filled it with plastic, but I think he knows better and I just don't understand why he would buy all of the equipment and not use it...Hell, even if he didn't have a wheel, a hammer and eyeball would have saved him many hours of work a hundreds in material.

It's times like this that it feels as though trying to pass on knowledge seems futile. I am now asking you guys how to get through to this person, he's a good guy and I even volunteered to do it for him on a weekend...any suggestions?

Ray

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Old 04-17-2013, 10:36 PM
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you always have to say "I heard" this is how guys in such and such do it. That way it lessons the blow to their ego and he may then listen. I feel the need to do it every once in a while so I always make it seem like it's coming from someone out of Boyd Coddington's shop-lol The more famous or known the source is the more inclined they will be to listen.
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:50 PM
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I think you may have done all that you can at this point. You might just have to wait for him to wise up or fail, and ask you for your assistance.

I used to design and build decks as a side job. I designed and helped build both of my neighbor's decks. When a third neighbor asked for assistance, I worked with him to design the deck he wanted, and myself and the other two neighbors offered to help him build it (our labor free). He declined, saying he would hire someone. He found the worst contractor on the planet. His wife called me on several occasions to come inspect what had been done and advise her/them of any problems. There were tons of problems. His wife continued to call me, but the guy wouldn't ask me, or even want to talk about it. I think he was embarrassed. I knew the county inspector, and worked with him to insure he made the contractor fix all the problems. The neighbor still barely talks to me.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:25 PM
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You know Bob, you may be on to something there and a part of this might be my fault, in the past I had praised his work and the work he had done was deserving of that praise. When it came to the rear panel he didn't get the praise that maybe he was expecting. Even when I think back, I remember the meeting 2 years ago when we talked filler versus lead and I mentioned that when the cars that these people are restoring where built, filler hadn't been invented yet...everything concerning body damage was either replace, pick and file or lead. That would explain why he wanted information on plastic filler sticking to lead and when I didn't answer the question right away (because in my mind that shouldn't even be talked about...the problem was the repair panel) he seemed offended or maybe I mistook his being offended for being embarrassed.

I would hate to see all that good money go to waste, let alone the time and effort. I think I may give him a call in the morning and see if I can get this resolved...for me as much as for him. I'll wear my hush puppies so I can tread lightly.

I also understand the old adage, anybody from out of town is an expert. This may be one of those times that I need to sneak up behind him and give him a whack with a Nerf Bat...LOL.

Ray
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:48 AM
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Good luck - I know it's bugging you - hope you can get it resolved. You might try suggesting that lead, like filler should be as thin as possible. I just had a mental picture of you sneaking up his driveway in your hush puppies, with a nerf bat behind you back!
Bob
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:07 AM
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Always atough deal. Ijust say how I would do it and get away from there. Sorry to say that if you try and do more you get the blame.

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Old 04-18-2013, 10:35 AM
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Welcome to my life, Ray. I deal with this on a daily basis as a scientist with all the horrible and INCORRECT information out there on vaccines, big pharma, etc. Different trade, similar problems. Unfortunately people die in my case if they get the bad advise.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
Welcome to my life, Ray. I deal with this on a daily basis as a scientist with all the horrible and INCORRECT information out there on vaccines, big pharma, etc. Different trade, similar problems. Unfortunately people die in my case if they get the bad advise.
I can appreciate what your saying and this isn't a matter of life and death, actually in the big scheme of things this is just a pebble in the speed bumps of life. I can only imagine your frustration and many times people put their faith in the man with a white coat prescribing medications just to get their share of the dispensing fee. So often the trade is different and the same problems exist, why, because of one common denominator, people. I've often said that life is the easiest thing that we go through, it's only people that get in the way.

As much as I'd like to help this individual, sometimes people need to fall on their face before they understand that somebody was there to give them a hand right from the start. This might be one of those cases. It would be a lot easier to just let it go but he really is a great guy and I want his project to turn out for him. Time will tell and if that time comes, I'll sum it up to a learning experience for him and help him out. If only the guy was jerk, but then I probably wouldn't care enough to start a thread...LOL. On second thought, maybe I would, it's a cool car too.

Ray
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:09 AM
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Some people just don't want to learn I figure. They have a hard time with once and they think it will always be that way I guess. I worked with a guy who would put the window in the door first, and then slide the rubber channels in. I would watch him fight every day with this, putting spray lube on the rubber trying to slide it down, ever try to PUSH a wet noodle? He would do this over and over. And every once in a while I would go over to him and ask "Do you think the factory assembles this door like that on the assembly line"? Put the rubber in first, and he would say it doesn't work for him. Folks, these late model car doors can be thrown together from across the street, not like a sixties car or 40's or something, they are so easy it is crazy, every guy in the shop puts them together in minutes yet this one guy spends forever pushing the rubber channel in. I don't get it but sometimes they just don't want to learn. Me personally, I LOVE it when someone comes over and tells me something that is going to make my job easier! It's a no brainer for me.

Brian
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:11 PM
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Ray, I deal with this with phone calls almost daily, so I feel your pain.
What I have found is they guy has gotten bad advice from a forum and now stripped the car and is already through the primer stage and that last thing he wants to hear is “sand it off” While I’m at it there are a lot of good forums out there but there are a couple where bad advice is the norm and endorsed by the forum owners in their own way.
One will not let you challenge bad advice and another owner is pushing a snake oil.

At this point, the guy really does not want to hear what I have to say but the truth be known, he has doubts and that is why he called.
What I do is go deep into the why and what can happen and explain how the chemicals in that situation can react, perhaps more then they want to hear but I will go a step further and say, you have a “say” 70% chance of getting away with what you have and give him a time frame of when it could happen, such as yesterday, I told the guy, it may blow first four hours in sun, 6 months or last three years, so you decide the risk.

Cheaper and easier to sand primer off now, then sanding paint and buying more paint down the road., I also try and explain, I have no dog in this fight, just giving you an honest opinion.

If you state it in black and white, they do understand.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:47 PM
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Thanks Barry, I appreciate the advice and your right, I never thought of it but there is a reason why he called me. As a matter of fact he did call me shortly after the meeting I was telling you about and I told him at that time that advice was free, if he wanted me to build the vehicle for him that then it would cost. So I'm sure he now knows that like you say "I don't have a dog in this fight".

I don't frequent other forums but if I heard this type of advice given here, I would challenge it. I used to work with a fellow that always believed the last person he talked to, so if you wanted something done right, you needed to be sure he didn't have a chance to talk to somebody that was giving advice just for the sake of giving it and get things done while the plan was still fresh in his mind. Again, he was a great guy but had a real challenge reading people.

I know he is going out to buy lead today but he told me that he won't have time to do anything before mid next week. I was going to call him this morning but decided not to. I've spoken my piece to him and hope common sense kicks in before he pours about 75 pound of lead into the back of the vehicle. Just the fact that I know he isn't going to do anything (and he made a point of that several times in our conversation) until next week makes me think that he's in the re think process already. I hope he calls me, that way I can make it his idea and he'll save face and feel better about the decision.

Yes Brian, if somebody comes up to me with a better idea, I love it, even if it is how to mask up an antenna...I found out the first or second day in the trade that masking an antenna was much faster if you don't wrap masking tape around it, it was the guy laughing the hardest that showed me it was faster and easier to run the tape length wise and fold it over...the guy unmasking it (me) was happier to...LOL.

Thanks guys, like I say, time will tell.

Ray
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:03 PM
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Unfortunately, there are guys in all the forums on this site who think they are "experts" and others follow them. The internet is a great thing, but it can also be a bad thing if you follow bad advise and follow that with worse advise.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:11 AM
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I'd ask him how he is going to find the right spring for that side of the car. Sounds like it will quite heavy...
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Some people just don't want to learn I figure. They have a hard time with once and they think it will always be that way I guess. I worked with a guy who would put the window in the door first, and then slide the rubber channels in. I would watch him fight every day with this, putting spray lube on the rubber trying to slide it down, ever try to PUSH a wet noodle? He would do this over and over. And every once in a while I would go over to him and ask "Do you think the factory assembles this door like that on the assembly line"? Put the rubber in first, and he would say it doesn't work for him. Folks, these late model car doors can be thrown together from across the street, not like a sixties car or 40's or something, they are so easy it is crazy, every guy in the shop puts them together in minutes yet this one guy spends forever pushing the rubber channel in. I don't get it but sometimes they just don't want to learn. Me personally, I LOVE it when someone comes over and tells me something that is going to make my job easier! It's a no brainer for me.

Brian
sometimes there is no other way. On certain GM trucks you have to loosen the track AND have no rubbers in it to get the glass in there. Yukon maybe or their 2500 trucks? It's been a while since doing one.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:24 AM
put up or shut up
 

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one thing I learned about people who don't want to change their ways is if you try to help them out at least once you can say you tried. Other than that, let them think what they want. No need to be a superhero. The only time it would really bug me is if we have quality standards and the boss brings in a guy that doesn't meet them standards. Then I ask myself, can this guy be guided into the right direction? Will he take the advice, is he worth it? If he's not a fit then it's how do I tell the boss this without being a weisel? Cause I don't like being a superhero and having to tell the boss someone sucks but the team also has to stay tight.
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