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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2009, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Exactly my point, it can be done BUT is it worth the effort? If all someone has is a 110, and this does happen occasionally, then there really is no limit to how thick a weld can be made with a 110 but the question is how practical would it be? With proper preheat there is no real problem with the actual weld made by the 110 machine but as was pointed out just how practical is it to preheat and maintain heat when welding a frame? The problem only gets worse as the metal gets thicker. Add to that the time spent waiting on the machine to cool to prevent exceeding the duty cycle and the advantage of the 220 is all too clear. For the occasional heavy (comparatively heavy anyway) weld then a 110 machine can be used but the extra procedure required makes it impractical for anything major.
So if they go out in buy a 110 unit,They also need to by a torch to go with it..

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-21-2009, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
So if they go out in buy a 110 unit,They also need to by a torch to go with it..

For most anything much heavier than body panels, yes.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 10:33 AM
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I have a 110v unit for sheetmetal and a 220v arc for anything 1/4" and up. My point was simply this. If you can use the 110v unit and get good penetration on 7ga, then why can't you use it on a frame that is 7ga? Does the metal care what it's being welded with? Please don't take my initial post as advocating using the wrong tool, I am simply asking a question as a beginning welder.
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Old 08-22-2009, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1meancuda
I have a 110v unit for sheetmetal and a 220v arc for anything 1/4" and up. My point was simply this. If you can use the 110v unit and get good penetration on 7ga, then why can't you use it on a frame that is 7ga? Does the metal care what it's being welded with? Please don't take my initial post as advocating using the wrong tool, I am simply asking a question as a beginning welder.
Ahhhh....penitration, the more the better i say but I'm listining to what the big red one has to say he's the pimp here.you need a hot rod for good penitration. not a quick lick.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 02:26 PM
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Cuda, the problem with the 110 units is the low amperage that is why the preheat on heavier parts is necessary. On that frame for instance you mention "getting good penetration" but what is going to happen, at least at first until the part heats up enough, is that the mass of the thicker metal will sink off the heat too fast causing a "chilled" weld that will be brittle and most likely riddled with microscopic cracks. You are right the weld don't care what it is being welded with and if you were to attempt to weld that frame with a 220 machine using the same wire and current setting as the 110 at max then you would run into the same problem. Another problem is the short duty cycle of the 110 machine, at max current setting that thing will run for only a very short time before it will overheat and you will have to stop and wait for it to cool down. I have used my little Lincoln to weld some really thick stuff in the past, this was done only because it was so much easier to get the small welder to the site and then only for small jobs. The trick to making this work, as was pointed out before and what I did on those parts, is to preheat the parts with a torch first to prevent thermal shock to the weld bead and base metal.

Try this little trick, take some 1/4" plate (or even some 1/8") about 6"x6" and join them with a short weld from a 110 machine without any preheat. Then try the same thing again but this time heat the area to be welded to about 400 to 450 deg, just to hot to touch with your bare hand, and you will see a huge difference in the way it welds. You will get much better penetration and the weld will flow out a heck of a lot better but it is what is not happening that you can't see that really matters. The weld will not chill nearly as fast and the weld bead and base metal will not be subjected to the thermal shock that it would be if the base metal was cold. With the larger welder the current input will be higher (if the machine is set properly) so the weld will not have the heat sink problem that it would with the lower amperage. Basically it is not a matter of whether the machine is a 110 outfit or a 220 it is a matter of the upper limits of the 110 machine.
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Old 08-22-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1meancuda
Does the metal care what it's being welded with?
The metal can careless what you weld it with... But that's beside the point... There is a lot of things about welding.. And it does take time to learn.. There is a lot of people that go buy a 110 unit,To start out..It's not the easiest machine to learn, Plus it's a waste of money..Their's a lot of people that think different.. I have seen good people give up trying to learn because of a 110 unit..And I bring them here and in five Min's of working with them, They are hooked... My son was 9 yrs old, He welded with my machine for about a hour, And was better then most men I welded beside..You just don't get the penetration that's needed... Even welding panels, It's much easier to weld with the 220 machine because you have better heat control... Most people that learn on a 110 unit, Don't really know what to look for in a weld,,A lot of 110 unit's will cold roll. It's when the weld don't flow out. And the side's of the weld roll under. This is a bad thing and most people don't realize it until your car frame break's and half while your driving, And it can turn bad real fast.. So I will never tell a new guy to buy a 110 unit, Never !!!! It's to easy for a beginner to think he has a good weld when he don't..

I would much rather see a beginner make a bad weld, but with good penetration by accident With a good machine,Then to see a beginner make a bad weld with no penetration with a bad machine, and not know it..

A vette, and a VW is both a car,And the VW doesn't know it don't have a vette engine in it..But can go the same place the vette can go..But there's a difference in performance..
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
but I'm listining to what the big red one has to say he's the pimp here.you need a hot rod for good penitration.
Yea !!! Your right... I could ''never'' know as much as oldred does about welding..I'm to young !!!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
.You just don't get the penetration that's needed... Even welding panels, It's much easier to weld with the 220 machine because you have better heat control...


Basically what's happening is that when using the 220 welder on a frame the lowest setting you will use will be higher than a 110 machine is capable of.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 02:48 PM
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
Yea !!! Your right... I could ''never'' know as much as oldred does about welding..I'm to young !!!
Yeh...me too!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 03:34 PM
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Thanks for the explanation guys. It makes pretty good sense to me now. I know some welding boards I was looking at the other day, this was a hot topic. 50% said yes, the other said no, etc......... Like I said, I bought my Hobart 140 for a couple reasons. The main one was body work. I know they advertise that it can do 1/4", but I already have a Lincoln 225 arc machine that can be used for the heavier stuff. I'm pretty cautious by nature, so if I ever have to weld something that I'm not 100% sure I can do a good job on, I'll be around asking questions.
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Old 08-22-2009, 04:14 PM
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But I don't use the lowest setting on my frame work

I am sure you don't and that was my point, the highest setting on the 110 is simply not high enough.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2009, 06:25 PM
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7 gauge =3/16"=0.1875

So going by the rule of thumb that for every .1 thickness of metal you need 100 amps means that you need 187.5 amps to weld that 7 gauge frame or whatever metal.
A 220v welder such as the Miller 180 will have just enough to do it without preheating.
Quit dreaming that the 110V welder can do it. You are kidding only yourself.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2009, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrot
7 gauge =3/16"=0.1875

So going by the rule of thumb that for every .1 thickness of metal you need 100 amps means that you need 187.5 amps to weld that 7 gauge frame or whatever metal.
A 220v welder such as the Miller 180 will have just enough to do it without preheating.
Quit dreaming that the 110V welder can do it. You are kidding only yourself.
Thanks for the equation. I haven't seen that before. Like I said though, I have a bigger arc machine if I'm going to do anything thicker. Who knows, maybe I'll even get a 220v MIG when I build my new garage in the next few years. I'll keep my 110v set up for sheetmetal for now.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2009, 06:42 AM
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what really burns my assis when a cheap shop owner pays me to go over to his shop and R&R all the panels on a classic witha cheap HF welder and wont listen when I tell him its no good right from the start,thats why his helps welds look like crap ,its not so much them its he POS welder, then complains when I cant even do a good weld so I go to my shop and get mine which involves rolling it up on a car lift to put it in the truck (it takes4guys to lift it)the come back and finish and he says I just have something against HF and all welders are the same.So why do you pay Me all this money when you know so much about welding? No time.....one other problem with a 110v is after doing some very precise welding for 30 min something like the voltage starts fluxuating and the welds start getting unpredictable ,you'll get one or two really good ones and afew bad ones the bigger 220v ones well..the good ones seam much more steady....Now,here's the kicker,guys....15 years ago I bought a 220v Solar for fifty bucks.....thats right fifty,but it didnt work for five years and sat in my buds corner of the shop ...he had a guy working for him that quit and never came back for it because it didnt work,I didnt know anything about welders then but do know electronics It took30 mins to fix,the power lug had rotted off so the machine got no juice it welds so good i started asking around about it,its one of the first ones it has all the extra wheels for aluminum and stainles welding wheels stich time ,weld time ,spot and a whole bunch of funtions I havent ever played with ,it must be some kind of industrial one because the pwr cord is two inchs thick it was ancient when I got it and Ive been welding with it for fifteen years so if you can get a deal like a hundred bucks for an old old one I'd do it because its a good way to learn about them and thats important too, not just pulling the trigger take a class too ,I did... and after migging for many years too.....I learned a lot and my teacher (who is one year older) and I became good friends he's into rods and he sends his best students over to the shop to make a little cash and gain experiance....its a win win.. no one knows it all but if you dont learn something you just might gain a good friend.....take a class a poor weld hidden by good looks on the out side might get a loved one killed...welding frames is serious business,and if your doing it for a friend...or getting paid for it, a lawsuit can cost you every thing....So use the 110s for 110 work ,home & garden....rakes and mowers...handyman stuff... leave the frames alone till you really know how to weld ...I just might be the guy behind you when your wheels fall off.
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