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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinger View Post
I don't see much reason for the paint sub forum myself. As to the poster that originated the SPI thug term, he was called out, and didn't bother to substantiate his claims. As far as Barrys' products go, I don't recall one complaint about his stuff. Can't say that about most products. Barry has been an asset to this forum and he does have his fans. I don't know of any other owners of paint companies that you can call on the phone for help.

As far as the sub forum goes, if it turns out to be just a bunch of opinions about paint, it really has no technical merit and will probably die a slow quiet death.
If there is such a thing as an "SPI Thug", is there a form you need to fill out to become one, or is letting people know that there is an alternative to the higher priced, high end primers and clears from the major manufacturer's enough to inducted into this group. If not, where do I sign up?

As many of you people know, I've spent a lot of time working for and have been a Rep for several of the major aftermarket paint manufacturer's. Do I like the products that they put out? Absolutely, they all work, some product lines better than others but, they all work. If they where designed to fail, chances are the companies wouldn't be around.

When I was a Rep for ICI (now Nexa) in the 80's and 90's, I was doing what I loved as a hobby, Restorations and Customs. I used PPG's DP 40 Epoxy Primer (Notice the part number...DP 40...no LF after the 40. That was back in the day that DP 40 contained lead and now the DP 40 LF product, the LF stands for Lead Free) no matter what primer or top coat came after...DP 40 worked that well. Even after they took the lead out, I still used it...and did so until I was informed about SPI. I tried the product myself on test panels, I abused the product on test panels. This was 6 months ago or more and the SPI Epoxy has out performed what I had been using, let alone the fact that I can easily sand SPI and sanding DP 40 LF is virtually like rubbing 2 rocks together. So I guess my question to the person that coined the phrase "SPI Thug", is...If I find a product that I like better than what I've been using, is telling other people about it wrong?

I have my preferences with other products as well, I like 3M's Perfect-it polishing compounds and equipment over other supplier's products...I like 3M's Panel Bond Adhesive and use it exclusively...I also mention my preference to anyone that asks. I guess this makes me a "3M Thug" as well.

Ray

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:10 AM
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there are those who do it right and those who stayed at motel 6 once.
this happens anytime 2nd line or relabeled crap is brought up. some guy comes on praising eastwoods new paint or summits new paint or how they painted their show car with omni . the smart thing for a professional to do is ignore and not post. but like barry told me once , if we dont speak up some poor guy with 2 years into his hotrod tries something and then discovers it all has to come off . when on a tight budget this is a disaster . but the google expert is nowhere to be found when it happens.
when i am building an engine i go to a professional for advice. i do not want to hear a bunch of bs from someone who changed an intake . take a look in the engine builders forum . those poor guys have been run ragged by google experts reading hotrod magazine.
maybe a better sub forum would be one for professionals to answer question but only after proof they do it for a living or own a shop. but that wont happen .

spi thug and proud of it ................... use to be a ppg thug but nobody whined about it.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
If there is such a thing as an "SPI Thug", is there a form you need to fill out to become one, or is letting people know that there is an alternative to the higher priced, high end primers and clears from the major manufacturer's enough to inducted into this group. If not, where do I sign up?

As many of you people know, I've spent a lot of time working for and have been a Rep for several of the major aftermarket paint manufacturer's. Do I like the products that they put out? Absolutely, they all work, some product lines better than others but, they all work. If they where designed to fail, chances are the companies wouldn't be around.

When I was a Rep for ICI (now Nexa) in the 80's and 90's, I was doing what I loved as a hobby, Restorations and Customs. I used PPG's DP 40 Epoxy Primer (Notice the part number...DP 40...no LF after the 40. That was back in the day that DP 40 contained lead and now the DP 40 LF product, the LF stands for Lead Free) no matter what primer or top coat came after...DP 40 worked that well. Even after they took the lead out, I still used it...and did so until I was informed about SPI. I tried the product myself on test panels, I abused the product on test panels. This was 6 months ago or more and the SPI Epoxy has out performed what I had been using, let alone the fact that I can easily sand SPI and sanding DP 40 LF is virtually like rubbing 2 rocks together. So I guess my question to the person that coined the phrase "SPI Thug", is...If I find a product that I like better than what I've been using, is telling other people about it wrong?

I have my preferences with other products as well, I like 3M's Perfect-it polishing compounds and equipment over other supplier's products...I like 3M's Panel Bond Adhesive and use it exclusively...I also mention my preference to anyone that asks. I guess this makes me a "3M Thug" as well.

Ray
Hey Ray, do you remember Dupont's "Cronar" HOLY CRAP that was like sanding CONCRETE! I think I am thinking of Cronar, or was it Condar, or something else? It had an induction period, I remember spraying a complete Dodge van with it and by the time I sanded it a week or so later I was going thru a sheet of paper about every few square feet, YEOW.

Brian
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine View Post
there are those who do it right and those who stayed at motel 6 once.
this happens anytime 2nd line or relabeled crap is brought up. some guy comes on praising eastwoods new paint or summits new paint or how they painted their show car with omni . the smart thing for a professional to do is ignore and not post. but like barry told me once , if we dont speak up some poor guy with 2 years into his hotrod tries something and then discovers it all has to come off . when on a tight budget this is a disaster . but the google expert is nowhere to be found when it happens.
when i am building an engine i go to a professional for advice. i do not want to hear a bunch of bs from someone who changed an intake . take a look in the engine builders forum . those poor guys have been run ragged by google experts reading hotrod magazine.
maybe a better sub forum would be one for professionals to answer question but only after proof they do it for a living or own a shop. but that wont happen .

spi thug and proud of it ................... use to be a ppg thug but nobody whined about it.
I have to say Shine, "owning a shop" or doing it for a living is no guarantee what so ever that the guy has the proper information. I will forever be amazed at what some "Pros" will not know. If the information is correct, it's correct, if it's not, it's not. This is why these forums are so great, they are open to everyone. It is the best place ever to get a balanced idea on issues. This discussion proves it, we have gotten a very good idea on it what is right and what is wrong. Simply presenting the case as you have here, says it all, done deal. It doesn't matter what anyone says, that is a done deal. Thank you!

Brian
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Hey Ray, do you remember Dupont's "Cronar" HOLY CRAP that was like sanding CONCRETE! I think I am thinking of Cronar, or was it Condar, or something else? It had an induction period, I remember spraying a complete Dodge van with it and by the time I sanded it a week or so later I was going thru a sheet of paper about every few square feet, YEOW.

Brian
But did it wipe off on a lacquer thinner soaked rag????????????
(just kidding)
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:36 AM
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shop owner ..... yeah brian i have to agree there . many are dumb as a tree stump on paint. worked for a few over the years. but the bottom line is guys come here for help . just like i do on engines . far too often things are lead astray by posers and wannab's .

and dont bring up anything 80's please the whole industry went stupid for a time. i still have a lot of my old training books. i look back sometimes and geeze we were fed a line of bs. kronar was junk in anyone's book .
look at k36 . you want to talk about a cult following . even ppg does not understand why it still sells .
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:58 AM
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ray , i too was a diehard dp40 guy until they changed it. but even it did not sand well .
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
If there is such a thing as an "SPI Thug", is there a form you need to fill out to become one, or is letting people know that there is an alternative to the higher priced, high end primers and clears from the major manufacturer's enough to inducted into this group. If not, where do I sign up?

As many of you people know, I've spent a lot of time working for and have been a Rep for several of the major aftermarket paint manufacturer's. Do I like the products that they put out? Absolutely, they all work, some product lines better than others but, they all work. If they where designed to fail, chances are the companies wouldn't be around.

When I was a Rep for ICI (now Nexa) in the 80's and 90's, I was doing what I loved as a hobby, Restorations and Customs. I used PPG's DP 40 Epoxy Primer (Notice the part number...DP 40...no LF after the 40. That was back in the day that DP 40 contained lead and now the DP 40 LF product, the LF stands for Lead Free) no matter what primer or top coat came after...DP 40 worked that well. Even after they took the lead out, I still used it...and did so until I was informed about SPI. I tried the product myself on test panels, I abused the product on test panels. This was 6 months ago or more and the SPI Epoxy has out performed what I had been using, let alone the fact that I can easily sand SPI and sanding DP 40 LF is virtually like rubbing 2 rocks together. So I guess my question to the person that coined the phrase "SPI Thug", is...If I find a product that I like better than what I've been using, is telling other people about it wrong?

I have my preferences with other products as well, I like 3M's Perfect-it polishing compounds and equipment over other supplier's products...I like 3M's Panel Bond Adhesive and use it exclusively...I also mention my preference to anyone that asks. I guess this makes me a "3M Thug" as well.

Ray
No form to fill out... Just speak the truth about SPI products and your in... No lie's,, Just the truth..In we will be sending you your patch...HEHEHEHE
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Hey Ray, do you remember Dupont's "Cronar" HOLY CRAP that was like sanding CONCRETE! I think I am thinking of Cronar, or was it Condar, or something else? It had an induction period, I remember spraying a complete Dodge van with it and by the time I sanded it a week or so later I was going thru a sheet of paper about every few square feet, YEOW.

Brian
I remember that product and a whole bunch of other ones that should have been shelved and not sent out to the public...times have changed and technology has improved...Thank God.

I think one of the biggest jokes in the Auto Body/Paint aftermarket industry was when the North American manufacturer tried to combat European Base Clear technology in the early 80's. Some of the products that came out where pathetic...I was a Rep for CIL and their answer to our largest competitor in my area at the time, Sikken's Auto Base, was 2K. Pretty hard to sell a product whose technology was outdated when it came out. No one was happier than me when CIL's automotive paint line got bought out by ICI.

I guess it was all a learning curve and the North American companies needed to learn from their mistakes and improve the product or, what many of them did, buy out the European competition and incorporate their technology as their own.

Ray
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcclark View Post
I use SPI epoxy exclusively, so don't get me wrong, but
I don't think weather lacquer thinner can disolve the surface
proves anything.
Wouldn't it hold the paint better if the top coat DID dissolve
into it a little?
If it's so hard that there can be no chemical bond, then only
the scratches hold the paint on? Is that better?
I just don't understand what all the fuss is over, it's
a moot point to me. I know it's good primer, I don't care
if it wipes off or not, it's covered with paint.
I'm surprised at you Jim, I'm sure you know that all epoxy manufacturers recommend sanding and recoat with epoxy before anything else if out of the recoat window. Then you can get a chemical bond.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Chevymon View Post
I'm surprised at you Jim, I'm sure you know that all epoxy manufacturers recommend sanding and recoat with epoxy before anything else if out of the recoat window. Then you can get a chemical bond.
Then it's not really a "chemical bond" but a "mechanical bond" I would think, Jim knows this, he is just saying.........not to speak for Jim but I think that's all he meant, if it is a little soluable, what's the big deal?

When it's sanded after the re-coat window has been passed it sorta is going to be a chemical bond in many cases, if it isn't FULLY cured, it's opening it up to flash of more and thus would be sort of a "chemical/mechanical" bond. I am thinking, maybe Barry can more clarify that. But generally sanding something gives the mechanical bond.

Brian
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 11:23 AM
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Well Brian and Chevymon, your both right, sanding generally gives you a mechanical bond, however, by opening up the Epoxy primer, your allowing for an easier chemical bond as well. In order to get a chemical bond, the solvents in the product being applied go through the substrate down to metal, bounce back up and then dissipate into the atmosphere. While the solvents are moving down through the sanded substrate, they are reacting with the substrate and bonding. If the substrate is not sanded, the solvents from the freshly sprayed product can't break through the original substrate and will peel off when dry. So it's not just the footprint of the sand scratch that helps with adhesion, it's the fact that it has opened up the substrate and allowed the chemical adhesion reaction to occur.

Here is an example. Clear coat can be sanded with 1,000 grit or even 1,500 sand paper and when you top coat it, the new product sticks...a very small sand scratch footprint, but adhesion is still there.

Hope this explains a bit further.

Ray
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:01 PM
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Well I'm confused, I thought it was only mechanical when you had to sand it.
That's why you sand it, no chemical bond so you need a mechanical which
means scratches for it to hold on to. Chemical means not needing sanding, yes?
Anyway-if solvents can go through the epoxy primer then
I can't believe it's waterproof like it's advertised, right?
Can it be a sealer and waterproof but solvents can penetrate to the metal?
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 12:32 PM
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It is confusing, the water molecule is larger than the solvent molecule, so, a product can be waterproof but that doesn't mean that it's not penetrable by other media. Another example, (this might be a bad example but it may get the point across) the filter in your paint booth stop air born dirt and dust but still allows air to pass through them, why, because the dust and dirt is larger than the air molecule.

In the ideal adhesion world, you have both mechanical and chemical adhesion. The chemical adhesion is the chemical joining between two products. When you sand a primer, your opening up the pours so that whatever you put on top will sink into the primer and bond with the chemicals in the primer.

Lets try it this way. We've all heard about solvents being to harsh. When a solvent is to harsh and it's applied to substrate it can cause the substrate to wrinkle....why...because it penetrated the substrate so aggressively that it broke up the molecular integrity of the substrate (think of the true meaning of the word solvent...it means to penetrate and break up...like solvents for cleaning grease off of parts like bearings). The ideal solvent for paint will not break up the substrates molecular integrity, it will soften it enough to allow the new top coat to penetrate and bond with the existing substrate.

I hope this explains it a bit better.

Ray
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2013, 01:03 PM
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Good stuff Ray.

Brian
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