spi epoxy test - Page 5 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #61 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:24 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: nj
Posts: 331
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 24
Thanked 22 Times in 19 Posts
I love it. SP I is a fine product. I think it's the only product on this board that's mentioned everyday. Mr. gearhead take cover. Mr. shine. You mentioned single stage black for a chassis.. I would like introduce you to another alternative
Beginning in 1976, all through the mid-80’s, a fleet of 6500 NYCTA subway cars were coated with AG111 to combat the corrosion and graffiti problems. After 18 months of testing, AG111 was the only coating that could withstand repeated vigorous scrubbings and washings with heavy bristle brushes and strong solvents. Seven enclosed car wash facilities washed 400 cars a week. A solvent/alkali cleaner was sprayed on and allowed to soak 5-8 minutes. The car then passed through a wash machine where it was thoroughly scrubbed and put through three rinses.
AG111 cures to a hard mirror-like finish, which other paints cannot penetrate. According to the NYCTA spokesman, after the 18 month test, the subway cars retained their gloss and shine after each washing, and all traces of graffiti disappeared. “The cars looked like they had just been through the paint shop,” the spokesman said.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #62 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:31 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,014
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 717
Thanked 1,083 Times in 966 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Although I didn't fully grasp everything that you posted, I did understand a fair amount and what I understood was that because water (being a solvent) has different properties, the chain reaction of water on primer is different than say the chain reaction of reducer on primer, making primer more water proof than reducer.

I will stay with my original statement though that sanding a primer aids in mechanical and chemical adhesion of primer to top coat.

I know this is going to sound anal...and I know it is....but, I dug up my old notes from the 80's...and in 1986 this was passed out by a CIL trainer in Edmonton, not ICI, which documented that "because the water molecule is larger than the molecules found in CIL's 2K primer, the water molecule can not penetrate today's high build catalyzed primers". Now I wish that I would have read that statement over before I posted...I would have questioned the fact that water can't penetrate high build primers because as we now know, they can.

So, again I thank you for clarifying the water molecule thing, the last thing I want to do is pass on information that isn't correct.

Ray
You know what's funny though Ray, passing on information that is wrong, but gets a point across can be more valuable than information that is correct but the reader doesn't understand and blocks it out learning nothing.

Your explanation worked to give a basic understanding of what these products do to someone who hasn't a clue about chemistry, will never know about chemistry and doesn't need to know about chemistry. If the some basic understanding of what this stuff does is given so someone has a little understanding of how this stuff works changes his practices for the better, than that is more important than out and out "truth".

It's like when I first went to a refinishing class with S-W after doing this stuff for about 15 years. I didn't have a clue, not even the basic clue as to how it worked. In this class they explained things much like your water molecule is larger analogy. They were talking to a bunch of guys who bang fenders and spray paint for a living, not a class of grad students at the university.

They used one particular analogy that hit me hard and stuck with me about mixing accurately and not being a "Junior chemist". This analogy was how you had to have the same amount of sailors as girls. If you have more of one than the other you have trouble. This made things perfectly understandable to a neanderthal like me.

The explanation of atomization was with a jar of BB's and a jar of Pingpong balls. The point being the jar of pingpong balls could fit a lot more solvent in between than the jar of BBs. Now the funny part is, if you think about it, that may be wrong being there is so much less surface area with the BBs that it could actually allow for more solvent, if you were to do the math, which I am not a mathematician so this isn't even a choice. But that visual being accurate or not helped me solve problems I had been creating for years with atomization.

Both these examples made me a better painter, HANDS DOWN they made me a better painter. If they had thrown out a few "molecular weight distribution and capacitance of the allotrope" or "equilibrium of the fundamental particles" I would have walked out of that class room not one bit better a painter.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to MARTINSR For This Useful Post:
69 widetrack (06-13-2013)
  #63 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:43 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,014
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 717
Thanked 1,083 Times in 966 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
I still don't know that it's an accurate statement to say there's a physical and chemical bond in sanding a primer, especially after the primer's cured. That really sounds like bucket chemistry there.

CIL obviously did not have a chemist on staff in making their comment, and if they did, I'm sure the poor guy probably quit because nobody listened to him.
Tell me something, how does the painter know if it is "fully cured"? And here lies the problem with only looking at things as a chemist, there is the real world where there are variables!

If you apply 3 mils of primer in two coats with a 30 minute flash time in between then wait a week and sand it, you are probably going to have a full cure (depending on the temperature it was exposed to) and you wouldn't have a "chemical" bond but a mechanical one. It is fully cured and the next application of what ever product you were applying would adhere to that sand scratch ("increased surface area" as I was taught).

If you applied 8 mils of that same primer in three coats (heavy, wet application) with a 15 minute flash time between coats, on a hot day in a week you could very well NOT have a fully cured film! The top surface flashes off and the solvents in the film are "trapped" slowing down the cure and it is NOT cured. You sand it and it "opens up" the film making the next application of products solvent soak into it that un-cured primer thus creating a "chemical bond".

I have seen products applied so heavy they were WET I mean stick your finger print into it WEEKS, many weeks after it was applied. Then the product was "opened up" by sanding the surface and left to fully cure (I can't say that it is ever fully cured with such abuse, that's over my head) to rock hard.

There are a LOT of variables when it comes to different human beings applying these products. And whether they fully understand the exothermic reaction they understand the bb's and pingpong balls in the jar just fine and don't make the mistake again.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #64 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:47 AM
shine's Avatar
SPI Thug
 

Last journal entry: some progress
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: bluff dale texas
Posts: 2,645
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 169 Times in 139 Posts
yes i did post the thread gearhead. a test to answer the question . you chimed in with nothing of value other than running you mouth. are you a painter ? how long ? got anything of value to add to this or are you just another spi bashing troll ? you haven't seen it so it doesn't exist right ? all these painters and car owners have just been lying for the last 10 years or so here . is that what your saying.

and your the one who dais you were a motel6 guy
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #65 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:54 AM
gearheadslife's Avatar
MentalMuffinMan
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,076
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 85
Thanked 229 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine View Post
yes i did post the thread gearhead. a test to answer the question . you chimed in with nothing of value other than running you mouth. are you a painter ? how long ? got anything of value to add to this or are you just another spi bashing troll ? you haven't seen it so it doesn't exist right ? all these painters and car owners have just been lying for the last 10 years or so here . is that what your saying.

and your the one who dais you were a motel6 guy
this is your quote, basicly say'n don't question anything.

shines quote"
there are those who do it right and those who stayed at motel 6 "


instead of post like these two. how about some detail shots with a 15meg pix camera or better of 8-10 year old ,sits out and is used not a garage queen. that sees weather, . that's not RUNNING MY MOUTH. that's asking a very very basic question. and why I would Ideal like to see said vehicle in person. before passing judgement.
but clearly that's to much to ask, and you automaticly call those that ask silly little things like this trolls.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #66 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 07:59 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: less than 6 hrs away
Posts: 6
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Seems to me many who try and belittle a product have not even read that products website or used the product. Barry sold color, both single stage and base coat. He dropped the color line for a few years because it was a bigger pain trying to tell people that his colors would not match any other colors, then still get the phone call how come my red paint doesn't match the red that was on my pickup!
He has again ventured into the color market, again in s/s and b/c. Colors are limited as he is trying to limit his headaches while still serving a great product to the end users . The blackest of blacks , SPI red, which is so red it makes some peoples eyes water,(jk). A SPI dark red, a pure white, a Hotrod black .

You wanted a "system" here it is in the most popular colors for many users.

btw- system is a farce used in marketing by the "bigs" when they were losing sales to a small company producing a superior activator for 2k clear.

PPG is a good product if your wallet is thick. SPI is an equal or better product and your wallet can stay thick.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #67 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:03 AM
Faith - Respect - Trust
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Age: 58
Posts: 3,508
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 192
Thanked 621 Times in 561 Posts
I'm just having a hard time trying to figure out why this is going to the extreme that it is. There are many die hard SPI fans on this forum...that's great, I like it too. As a matter of fact I now prefer the Epoxy to what I had been using...my preference, that's all. As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps a previous thread...I like 3M's perfect-it system for polishing, 3M's PPS system for disposable paint liners, 3M's Body panel adhesive, 3M's sand paper, masking tape and a host of 3M products...however, when and if I recommend any 3M product, I may get a fart in the wind type of rebuttal like "it's to expensive, use this" or "I use Norton because...", and that's it. The minute SPI gets mentioned it seems as though we better line up the artillery Martha, the British are coming.

I've been in the paint business a long time, I have never seen a paint brand invoke so much interest, emotion and even passion. For the first while on this forum, I stood back and watched, listened and finally, because of all the hoppla, I tried it. If this is all part of a grand marketing campaign, weirdest one I've ever seen.

As far as SPI not having a full color pallet and why not if SPI is so huge...well, I don't think SPI is that huge, I think SPI has a following of loyal customers that for some reason choose to use SPI over what they had been using and if that's the case, perhaps we need to ask ourselves why did these people choose SPI over what they had been using. Now this is where I can possibly put a little light on this subject. I had been a PPG, DP40 fan for well over 20 years...loved it.

Cost of the product...didn't care, I told the customer that DP40 was the best Epoxy Primer I had used (which at the time was true) the customer paid for the cost of using DP40, so it wasn't cost.

Availability of the product...well many more PPG jobbers than SPI jobbers, so DP 40 is more easily available.

Color choices...about the same, PPG's DP line may have an advantage, overall very similar.

What else is there...well I think that they are fairly similar in corrosion protection...the tests i did about 6 months ago show that SPI Epoxy outperformed the abuse I put it through and looking at the test panels today, they still look great.

So why go to SPI epoxy, for me it was the fact that I could get decent build if I needed it and it's sanding characteristics. Why the clear, it lays down nice, polishes well and if your in a production shop, you can save money because your baking costs are cut down.

Why does SPI not have a full pallet of colors, maybe because they aren't huge and getting a full pallet of colors would cost a great deal of money. I asked Barryk why, he basically told me that he wanted to concentrate on what SPI was good at...building high quality primers and clear coats. Not a bad answer, I feel that my area of expertise, if I have one, is painting, I focus on continually improving that skill. Why chastise a company that focuses on what they are good at.

PPG, Dupont, BASF, SW, all the majors, they all work, they all serve a purpose, they are all designed, when directions are followed, to fill a need in the market place, just like SPI. So, I guess it comes down to personal preference, many people prefer Dupont over PPG...I now prefer SPI's primers and clears over what I had been using, for me, they better fill my need. If another product or manufacturer's product better fills someone else's need then that is what they should use. At the end of the day, the basic principals of application and how the products are finished remain the same or at least very similar...so why get pissed if somebody really likes one product over another one? I don't get it.

Sorry for the long rant...but...just my thoughts.

Ray
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #68 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:08 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 13,014
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 717
Thanked 1,083 Times in 966 Posts
Color is a HUGE cost to the paint manufacturer. And honestly, the NUMBER ONE sales feature bar non is color when it comes to collision repair.

The thought of someone buying an SPI red and thinking it was going to match their car gives me a chuckle. Funny stuff, if they only knew a tiny inkling of what a collision repair painter goes thru to match color, damn that is just fun, I am chuckling right now.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #69 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:11 AM
shine's Avatar
SPI Thug
 

Last journal entry: some progress
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: bluff dale texas
Posts: 2,645
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 169 Times in 139 Posts
gearhead you are indeed a troll in this thread. you have nothing to add .
you ever hear of a search function ? try it . see how many people here have cars that have been done 8-10 years . but i guess you are the only one who can judge them , right . what you dont get is those of us with 40 years in this have already made the mistakes , be conned by the majors , tried the short cuts and finally learned enough about paint to avoid the disasters. i spend a lot of time on the phone with new painters and guys doing their own . we do it that way to avoid the trolls who just confuse them with all the bs . barry spends the majority of his day doing the same thing. without fail it always leads back to some motel6 bs they read on the net .
if your a professional painter fine . share your knowledge . prove me wrong if i am. i need to know . this is how i make my living and have for 40 years. but dont try to blow smoke up my *** with continued bs. i'm old and just dont have the time for it . nor do i care. mt give a damn has been busted for a long time,
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #70 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:17 AM
shine's Avatar
SPI Thug
 

Last journal entry: some progress
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: bluff dale texas
Posts: 2,645
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 169 Times in 139 Posts
ray , you can go back years on this forum. the more they talk about spi the more the trolls piss and whine. go figure . of all the painters and diy people i have recommended it to i have yet to hear anything bad. with the exception of one friend who hates it ....... why ? because he cant get it down under . he swears he is going to smuggle some home next time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #71 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:21 AM
gearheadslife's Avatar
MentalMuffinMan
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,076
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 85
Thanked 229 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by shine View Post
gearhead you are indeed a troll in this thread. you have nothing to add .
you ever hear of a search function ? try it . see how many people here have cars that have been done 8-10 years . but i guess you are the only one who can judge them , right . what you dont get is those of us with 40 years in this have already made the mistakes , be conned by the majors , tried the short cuts and finally learned enough about paint to avoid the disasters. i spend a lot of time on the phone with new painters and guys doing their own . we do it that way to avoid the trolls who just confuse them with all the bs . barry spends the majority of his day doing the same thing. without fail it always leads back to some motel6 bs they read on the net .
if your a professional painter fine . share your knowledge . prove me wrong if i am. i need to know . this is how i make my living and have for 40 years. but dont try to blow smoke up my *** with continued bs. i'm old and just dont have the time for it . nor do i care. mt give a damn has been busted for a long time,
deflect and bash. AGAIN. I'd like to see a vehicle with said product that's seen weather and used, not garage queen. that the paint is 8-10 y/o
that's not a troll. that asking if my INVESTMENT is going to last..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #72 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:22 AM
gearheadslife's Avatar
MentalMuffinMan
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,076
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 85
Thanked 229 Times in 216 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Color is a HUGE cost to the paint manufacturer. And honestly, the NUMBER ONE sales feature bar non is color when it comes to collision repair.

The thought of someone buying an SPI red and thinking it was going to match their car gives me a chuckle. Funny stuff, if they only knew a tiny inkling of what a collision repair painter goes thru to match color, damn that is just fun, I am chuckling right now.

Brian
yup, factory colors can have 5 alternates darker than,lighter than, greener than, etc,etc,etc,
peril white is a blast to match.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #73 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:30 AM
put up or shut up
 

Last journal entry: saying goodbye to the beast
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Antelope, Ca
Posts: 2,005
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 556
Thanked 217 Times in 196 Posts
how bout we put the beakers away and have a test comparison vs other brands?

With that said, I like SEM. Most of their products have been great, and love their prices on their dura mix products. SEM thug in the hizouse! Then you got the 3M Platinum filler posse, and The IR air tool goons. Man, me and my homies get dizown. In any case, we all have our brands that we love.

My current needs for an epoxy is to find a good one that can be sanded down with 600 and not kill my shoulders and have a tad of build.

Last edited by tech69; 06-13-2013 at 08:43 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #74 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:36 AM
shine's Avatar
SPI Thug
 

Last journal entry: some progress
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: bluff dale texas
Posts: 2,645
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 169 Times in 139 Posts
tech your cracking me up . sem thug ........ guilty . although i am fond of duramix .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to shine For This Useful Post:
tech69 (06-13-2013)
  #75 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:36 AM
Faith - Respect - Trust
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ontario
Age: 58
Posts: 3,508
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 192
Thanked 621 Times in 561 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You know what's funny though Ray, passing on information that is wrong, but gets a point across can be more valuable than information that is correct but the reader doesn't understand and blocks it out learning nothing.

Your explanation worked to give a basic understanding of what these products do to someone who hasn't a clue about chemistry, will never know about chemistry and doesn't need to know about chemistry. If the some basic understanding of what this stuff does is given so someone has a little understanding of how this stuff works changes his practices for the better, than that is more important than out and out "truth".

It's like when I first went to a refinishing class with S-W after doing this stuff for about 15 years. I didn't have a clue, not even the basic clue as to how it worked. In this class they explained things much like your water molecule is larger analogy. They were talking to a bunch of guys who bang fenders and spray paint for a living, not a class of grad students at the university.

They used one particular analogy that hit me hard and stuck with me about mixing accurately and not being a "Junior chemist". This analogy was how you had to have the same amount of sailors as girls. If you have more of one than the other you have trouble. This made things perfectly understandable to a neanderthal like me.

The explanation of atomization was with a jar of BB's and a jar of Pingpong balls. The point being the jar of pingpong balls could fit a lot more solvent in between than the jar of BBs. Now the funny part is, if you think about it, that may be wrong being there is so much less surface area with the BBs that it could actually allow for more solvent, if you were to do the math, which I am not a mathematician so this isn't even a choice. But that visual being accurate or not helped me solve problems I had been creating for years with atomization.

Both these examples made me a better painter, HANDS DOWN they made me a better painter. If they had thrown out a few "molecular weight distribution and capacitance of the allotrope" or "equilibrium of the fundamental particles" I would have walked out of that class room not one bit better a painter.

Brian
Brian, I was going to push the "Thank You" button for this post but...the Thank You button seems to have gone away...don't know why. What you eloquently stated is basically what I was trying to get across.

Now, I am a self admitted anal person, I had been taught that sanding a product (such as Epoxy Primer) and then top coating it with either more primer or another product with solvents in it, the sanding would aid in the chemical adhesion process and I needed a simple analogy/explanation that I could pass on and help people understand the process.

Lets say that your Epoxy primer is a sponge in a chemical resistant plastic bag. If you try and coat the sponge with the plastic over it...chances are what your trying to coat the sponge with won't adhere. Now if you open up the sponge and take it out of the plastic bag, as you open up primer by sanding and you top coat it, the solvents will not only go through the sponge or primer, they drag whatever else the solvents are mixed with (color, more primer, whatever) into the sponge and there you have a chemical bond enhanced because of sanding. Primer's, Clear's, Single Stage are all chemical resistant to a degree when cured, by sanding these products, the chemical resistance is broken down or opened up.

I don't want to give bucket chemistry or pass on anything that isn't correct so I contacted a Chemist/past co-worker this morning, gave him the characteristic of solvent based primers and top coats and asked if this analogy would, for lack of better terminology, hold water...LOL. I was told that absolutely it would.

Hope this helps.

Ray
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 69 widetrack For This Useful Post:
MARTINSR (06-13-2013)

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
spi epoxy swvalcon Body - Exterior 14 09-24-2012 06:34 AM
spi epoxy shine Body - Exterior 18 07-11-2011 05:25 AM
Flash rust OK under epoxy? SPI epoxy primer, Transtar 6131, or PPG Shop Line? off2wildblue Body - Exterior 2 07-29-2010 08:53 PM
SPI epoxy imperialman67 Body - Exterior 9 09-05-2009 06:34 AM
SPI Epoxy Q's S10xGN Body - Exterior 7 02-04-2008 07:29 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.