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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
I'd like to see a vehicle with said product that's seen weather and used, not garage queen. that the paint is 8-10 y/o
that's not a troll. that asking if my INVESTMENT is going to last..
Well, here's the oldest one I have pictures of.
It was my daily driver, garaged about half the time.
I drove this Honda to work everyday, it sat outside in the weather.
I sold it just last yr and it still looked the same.
I never even waxed this car, the SPI clear never needed it.
So at 5 yrs old it looked the same.
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 09:26 AM
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20 y/o DuPont
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by shine View Post
tech your cracking me up . sem thug ........ guilty . although i am fond of duramix .
Really, come on now, I am the biggest Evercoat, Meguires and Accustrike welding helmet thug on the street corner! LOL

I have said for years, if Evercoat or Meguires made TV's I would buy them, neither of those companies can do wrong in my book.

Brian
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:05 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Brian, I was going to push the "Thank You" button for this post but...the Thank You button seems to have gone away...don't know why. What you eloquently stated is basically what I was trying to get across.

Now, I am a self admitted anal person, I had been taught that sanding a product (such as Epoxy Primer) and then top coating it with either more primer or another product with solvents in it, the sanding would aid in the chemical adhesion process and I needed a simple analogy/explanation that I could pass on and help people understand the process.

Lets say that your Epoxy primer is a sponge in a chemical resistant plastic bag. If you try and coat the sponge with the plastic over it...chances are what your trying to coat the sponge with won't adhere. Now if you open up the sponge and take it out of the plastic bag, as you open up primer by sanding and you top coat it, the solvents will not only go through the sponge or primer, they drag whatever else the solvents are mixed with (color, more primer, whatever) into the sponge and there you have a chemical bond enhanced because of sanding. Primer's, Clear's, Single Stage are all chemical resistant to a degree when cured, by sanding these products, the chemical resistance is broken down or opened up.

I don't want to give bucket chemistry or pass on anything that isn't correct so I contacted a Chemist/past co-worker this morning, gave him the characteristic of solvent based primers and top coats and asked if this analogy would, for lack of better terminology, hold water...LOL. I was told that absolutely it would.

Hope this helps.

Ray

You and me both, I WANT to know more. But damn it, sometimes just the basic idea is all we need.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 06-13-2013 at 10:17 AM.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
20 y/o DuPont
Daily Driver?

Does it really matter...I've seen 30 year old Dupont paint jobs look good and 6 month old Dupont look like trash...My Father in-laws Grande Marquis was the first car I ever painted...done in CIL 2K, sold it 12 years later...had a few rock chips but looked good. I painted a 76 Firebird in the early 90's...the painted only lasted for about 2 hours, the car got hit my a bus.

I'm having a hard time seeing what this proves...there are so many variables and I don't know how you can honestly compare and draw any kind of concrete conclusion and without a doubt say one paint is the best or better than.

You take 10 cars...paint 1 with SPI, 1 with Dupont, 1 with PPG and so on...get BarryK, get a rep from each of the paint companies represented and tell each representative to go pick the vehicle painted in their product. Do you think that everybody is going to pick the vehicle that they represent? I think you have a 1 in 10 chance of picking the car and guessing the product.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 69 widetrack View Post
Daily Driver?

Does it really matter...I've seen 30 year old Dupont paint jobs look good and 6 month old Dupont look like trash...My Father in-laws Grande Marquis was the first car I ever painted...done in CIL 2K, sold it 12 years later...had a few rock chips but looked good. I painted a 76 Firebird in the early 90's...the painted only lasted for about 2 hours, the car got hit my a bus.

I'm having a hard time seeing what this proves...there are so many variables and I don't know how you can honestly compare and draw any kind of concrete conclusion and without a doubt say one paint is the best or better than.

You take 10 cars...paint 1 with SPI, 1 with Dupont, 1 with PPG and so on...get BarryK, get a rep from each of the paint companies represented and tell each representative to go pick the vehicle painted in their product. Do you think that everybody is going to pick the vehicle that they represent? I think you have a 1 in 10 chance of picking the car and guessing the product.
My God isn't that the truth! It's like comparing women, they all have the same parts don't they? LOLOL


Brian
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
My God isn't that the truth! It's like comparing women, they all have the same parts don't they? LOLOL


Brian
Yes Brian, they all do have the same parts but, for the safety of the men...they better be able to pick the woman that's their's...LOL

Ray
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
if spi is so huge, why no color coats,
I know the reason.. most paint brands only warranty if it's full system is used..
.
Well, they do actually have color coats, albeit a small selection. For awhile they weren't making any, then finally started to after bowing to demand, and in the past they used to make quite a few the way I've understood it from Barry.

You don't actually know the reason. I do know the reason, but what you've stated here is not it. Barry backs the stuff whether you used their entire system or not. My Mustang has been sitting in epoxy for 3 years now...that's the longest I've had to test it.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You and me both, I WANT to know more. But damn it, sometimes just the basic idea is all we need.

Brian
Well, Ray asked what I understood to be a sincere question. So I took the TIME, (and believe me, that took me a LOT of time...I was digging through my info fact checking so as not to pass on incorrect info...the 'scientist' can't be wrong about 'science'!!!) to give a sincere answer. I supplied a 'more than the basics' and then I tried to explain in a way that was easier to understand.

Tell me Brian, how do you TRULY appreciate a GOOD paint job without knowing exactly what has gone into it, or having done it yourself? I don't know that you could. That's all I wanted for anybody. I didn't expect them to understand it....I don't even remember a tiny fraction of it myself. But if you look through it and say 'wow, that is some high tech, schmancy stuff,' then maybe you'll have a more wholesome appreciation for the chemistry that goes into it, which you were never exposed to before.

And there ARE very basic things that can easily be understood and passed on by your very selves and still be 100% factual.

For instance:
"Why does water not dissolve primers though acetone will?"

Well you can tell them, 'like dissolves like. Chemicals with certain properties will only dissolve other chemicals with the same properties.'

But had I only told YOU that, you wouldn't have nearly the respect for It.

Take it another step further, water and these paint chemicals don't have the same properties. They essentially 'repel' each other since they can't be dissolved by water. So what happens when you get water in your paint line? FISH EYES!

Now are these difficult to understand?

Let's go back to the example of water not being able to get through a primer because 'a water molecule is larger than the primer molecules.'

How about 'a water molecule cannot fit through the space BETWEEN the primer molecules.'

That's even easier! You like your analogies, well take this one then...throw some ping pong balls (primer molecules) out on the grass (which is the metal) and throw a marble (water molecule) out there. It will probably land on the grass. Push all the ping pong balls together now, and throw the marble. It will land on a ping pong ball.

Of course there could be other reasons. You know what hygroscopic is. Maybe the chemicals in the system LOVE water and invite it in. Like a girl that walks up to the door of a frat house.

Or maybe the chemicals of the system repel water because they're not compatible, different polarities, etc. Like a guy that walks up to the door of a sorority house!
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 05:00 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
Well, Ray asked what I understood to be a sincere question. So I took the TIME, (and believe me, that took me a LOT of time...I was digging through my info fact checking so as not to pass on incorrect info...the 'scientist' can't be wrong about 'science'!!!) to give a sincere answer. I supplied a 'more than the basics' and then I tried to explain in a way that was easier to understand.

Tell me Brian, how do you TRULY appreciate a GOOD paint job without knowing exactly what has gone into it, or having done it yourself? I don't know that you could. That's all I wanted for anybody. I didn't expect them to understand it....I don't even remember a tiny fraction of it myself. But if you look through it and say 'wow, that is some high tech, schmancy stuff,' then maybe you'll have a more wholesome appreciation for the chemistry that goes into it, which you were never exposed to before.

And there ARE very basic things that can easily be understood and passed on by your very selves and still be 100% factual.

For instance:
"Why does water not dissolve primers though acetone will?"

Well you can tell them, 'like dissolves like. Chemicals with certain properties will only dissolve other chemicals with the same properties.'

But had I only told YOU that, you wouldn't have nearly the respect for It.

Take it another step further, water and these paint chemicals don't have the same properties. They essentially 'repel' each other since they can't be dissolved by water. So what happens when you get water in your paint line? FISH EYES!

Now are these difficult to understand?

Let's go back to the example of water not being able to get through a primer because 'a water molecule is larger than the primer molecules.'

How about 'a water molecule cannot fit through the space BETWEEN the primer molecules.'

That's even easier! You like your analogies, well take this one then...throw some ping pong balls (primer molecules) out on the grass (which is the metal) and throw a marble (water molecule) out there. It will probably land on the grass. Push all the ping pong balls together now, and throw the marble. It will land on a ping pong ball.

Of course there could be other reasons. You know what hygroscopic is. Maybe the chemicals in the system LOVE water and invite it in. Like a girl that walks up to the door of a frat house.

Or maybe the chemicals of the system repel water because they're not compatible, different polarities, etc. Like a guy that walks up to the door of a sorority house!

I am not kidding you, I am sitting here laughing out loud, hardy chuckles actually. Thanks so much for this reply. Beautiful job, I think you covered all the bases.

Brian
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 05:06 PM
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Tell me something, how does the painter know if it is "fully cured"? And here lies the problem with only looking at things as a chemist, there is the real world where there are variables!

If you apply 3 mils of primer in two coats with a 30 minute flash time in between then wait a week and sand it, you are probably going to have a full cure (depending on the temperature it was exposed to) and you wouldn't have a "chemical" bond but a mechanical one. It is fully cured and the next application of what ever product you were applying would adhere to that sand scratch ("increased surface area" as I was taught).

If you applied 8 mils of that same primer in three coats (heavy, wet application) with a 15 minute flash time between coats, on a hot day in a week you could very well NOT have a fully cured film! The top surface flashes off and the solvents in the film are "trapped" slowing down the cure and it is NOT cured. You sand it and it "opens up" the film making the next application of products solvent soak into it that un-cured primer thus creating a "chemical bond".

I have seen products applied so heavy they were WET I mean stick your finger print into it WEEKS, many weeks after it was applied. Then the product was "opened up" by sanding the surface and left to fully cure (I can't say that it is ever fully cured with such abuse, that's over my head) to rock hard.

There are a LOT of variables when it comes to different human beings applying these products. And whether they fully understand the exothermic reaction they understand the bb's and pingpong balls in the jar just fine and don't make the mistake again.

Brian
It doesn't change a thing. Let's just assume that when it's fully cured, it's only a physical bond. I don't know for certain if that's true or a bunch of bunk, but for the sake of conversation, let's just just pretend it's true. Then, when the paint is cured, whether it takes a year, or 5 minutes, then any application beyond that is merely physical.

So you ask 'well how does the painter know it's fully cured?' Well, they don't. But this would do nothing to change the point that it would still only be a physical bond after curing. And should they have put on more mils before curing, then I guess they would get a 'chemical bond' too, (don't know if that's true or not)...a bonus!
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 05:10 PM
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Hi there Lizer

I think you explained it great when you said that a water molecule doesn't fit between the space in primer molecules...That does it for me...it explains what my old friend John Sammer tried to explain to me in the CIL seminar. My faith in John was never in doubt...that being said, I thank you for the wording...it gives me a visual and I think that's all that Brian was getting at.

Thanks Lizer
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:13 PM
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I am not kidding you, I am sitting here laughing out loud, hardy chuckles actually. Thanks so much for this reply. Beautiful job, I think you covered all the bases.

Brian
'covering all the bases' right after a 'girl walking up to a frat house analogy'. No pun intended?
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2013, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Lizer View Post
It doesn't change a thing. Let's just assume that when it's fully cured, it's only a physical bond. I don't know for certain if that's true or a bunch of bunk, but for the sake of conversation, let's just just pretend it's true. Then, when the paint is cured, whether it takes a year, or 5 minutes, then any application beyond that is merely physical.

So you ask 'well how does the painter know it's fully cured?' Well, they don't. But this would do nothing to change the point that it would still only be a physical bond after curing. And should they have put on more mils before curing, then I guess they would get a 'chemical bond' too, (don't know if that's true or not)...a bonus!
So you are saying that basically there is no "physical bond"? That it is always a chemical bond? But we all know if were to paint a hood on a year old car, sand half the hood and don't sand the other side at all the adhesion would be almost non-existent on the un-sanded side. Are you saying that the bond that IS there though slight is chemical and that is all there is to it? And when it's sanded there is still only chemical and not physical?

Brian
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Old 06-13-2013, 05:30 PM
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So you are saying that basically there is no "physical bond"? That it is always a chemical bond? But we all know if were to paint a hood on a year old car, sand half the hood and don't sand the other side at all the adhesion would be almost non-existent on the un-sanded side. Are you saying that the bond that IS there though slight is chemical and that is all there is to it? And when it's sanded there is still only chemical and not physical?

Brian
No I'm saying that what makes sense to me is there is only physical bond when a cured finish is sanded. I'm also saying that I don't know if there actually is any chemical bond at any point, unless more coats are added to a finish not completely cured so it is still susceptible to (dissolved by) the solvents in the newly added coats.

The chemistry and science of paint finishes fascinates me, and when I work on my car, I really try to apply the science I know with the art and skills I try to learn here and elsewhere. I just wish I knew more about the actual chemistry. What I'm saying in the above paragraph are just musings...educated guesses maybe, but don't accept them as the truth. I'm not a chemist.
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