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spi epoxy test

35K views 242 replies 28 participants last post by  dinger 
#1 ·
i think this will be about the 5th time this has been done on this board over the years . when the bs gets deep someone does it.
this test panel was sanded with 80 grit and cleaned with solvent base cleaner.
shot 2 med wet coats with a 1.4 at noon yesterday .
80 degrees in my booth
after approx 18 hours of cure
scrubbed with lacquer thinner until rag dried

only some slight residue came off . look close and you'll see my finger prints so i was not being gentle .
now this should put this to rest for a few years again .

this test was done to help those who do not post but need correct info on products or are looking for help. please do not move it to the paint only sub forum . i do not use cheap 3rd line paints so i can offer no help there . that seems to be the main reason for the sub forum.

signed " one of the spi thugs "
 

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#57 ·
you are absolutely right dave . but every few years the trolls show up . they do a lot of whining but offer no proof of anything. if you dont like spi fine . offer up some facts or **** already .
 
#61 ·
I love it. SP I is a fine product. I think it's the only product on this board that's mentioned everyday. Mr. gearhead take cover. Mr. shine. You mentioned single stage black for a chassis.. I would like introduce you to another alternative
Beginning in 1976, all through the mid-80’s, a fleet of 6500 NYCTA subway cars were coated with AG111 to combat the corrosion and graffiti problems. After 18 months of testing, AG111 was the only coating that could withstand repeated vigorous scrubbings and washings with heavy bristle brushes and strong solvents. Seven enclosed car wash facilities washed 400 cars a week. A solvent/alkali cleaner was sprayed on and allowed to soak 5-8 minutes. The car then passed through a wash machine where it was thoroughly scrubbed and put through three rinses.
AG111 cures to a hard mirror-like finish, which other paints cannot penetrate. According to the NYCTA spokesman, after the 18 month test, the subway cars retained their gloss and shine after each washing, and all traces of graffiti disappeared. “The cars looked like they had just been through the paint shop,” the spokesman said.
 
#64 ·
yes i did post the thread gearhead. a test to answer the question . you chimed in with nothing of value other than running you mouth. are you a painter ? how long ? got anything of value to add to this or are you just another spi bashing troll ? you haven't seen it so it doesn't exist right ? all these painters and car owners have just been lying for the last 10 years or so here . is that what your saying.

and your the one who dais you were a motel6 guy
 
#65 ·
yes i did post the thread gearhead. a test to answer the question . you chimed in with nothing of value other than running you mouth. are you a painter ? how long ? got anything of value to add to this or are you just another spi bashing troll ? you haven't seen it so it doesn't exist right ? all these painters and car owners have just been lying for the last 10 years or so here . is that what your saying.

and your the one who dais you were a motel6 guy
this is your quote, basicly say'n don't question anything.

shines quote"
there are those who do it right and those who stayed at motel 6 "


instead of post like these two. how about some detail shots with a 15meg pix camera or better of 8-10 year old ,sits out and is used not a garage queen. that sees weather, . that's not RUNNING MY MOUTH. that's asking a very very basic question. and why I would Ideal like to see said vehicle in person. before passing judgement.
but clearly that's to much to ask, and you automaticly call those that ask silly little things like this trolls.
 
#66 ·
Seems to me many who try and belittle a product have not even read that products website or used the product. Barry sold color, both single stage and base coat. He dropped the color line for a few years because it was a bigger pain trying to tell people that his colors would not match any other colors, then still get the phone call how come my red paint doesn't match the red that was on my pickup!
He has again ventured into the color market, again in s/s and b/c. Colors are limited as he is trying to limit his headaches while still serving a great product to the end users . The blackest of blacks , SPI red, which is so red it makes some peoples eyes water,(jk). A SPI dark red, a pure white, a Hotrod black .

You wanted a "system" here it is in the most popular colors for many users.

btw- system is a farce used in marketing by the "bigs" when they were losing sales to a small company producing a superior activator for 2k clear.

PPG is a good product if your wallet is thick. SPI is an equal or better product and your wallet can stay thick.
 
#67 ·
I'm just having a hard time trying to figure out why this is going to the extreme that it is. There are many die hard SPI fans on this forum...that's great, I like it too. As a matter of fact I now prefer the Epoxy to what I had been using...my preference, that's all. As I mentioned in a previous post, perhaps a previous thread...I like 3M's perfect-it system for polishing, 3M's PPS system for disposable paint liners, 3M's Body panel adhesive, 3M's sand paper, masking tape and a host of 3M products...however, when and if I recommend any 3M product, I may get a fart in the wind type of rebuttal like "it's to expensive, use this" or "I use Norton because...", and that's it. The minute SPI gets mentioned it seems as though we better line up the artillery Martha, the British are coming.

I've been in the paint business a long time, I have never seen a paint brand invoke so much interest, emotion and even passion. For the first while on this forum, I stood back and watched, listened and finally, because of all the hoppla, I tried it. If this is all part of a grand marketing campaign, weirdest one I've ever seen.

As far as SPI not having a full color pallet and why not if SPI is so huge...well, I don't think SPI is that huge, I think SPI has a following of loyal customers that for some reason choose to use SPI over what they had been using and if that's the case, perhaps we need to ask ourselves why did these people choose SPI over what they had been using. Now this is where I can possibly put a little light on this subject. I had been a PPG, DP40 fan for well over 20 years...loved it.

Cost of the product...didn't care, I told the customer that DP40 was the best Epoxy Primer I had used (which at the time was true) the customer paid for the cost of using DP40, so it wasn't cost.

Availability of the product...well many more PPG jobbers than SPI jobbers, so DP 40 is more easily available.

Color choices...about the same, PPG's DP line may have an advantage, overall very similar.

What else is there...well I think that they are fairly similar in corrosion protection...the tests i did about 6 months ago show that SPI Epoxy outperformed the abuse I put it through and looking at the test panels today, they still look great.

So why go to SPI epoxy, for me it was the fact that I could get decent build if I needed it and it's sanding characteristics. Why the clear, it lays down nice, polishes well and if your in a production shop, you can save money because your baking costs are cut down.

Why does SPI not have a full pallet of colors, maybe because they aren't huge and getting a full pallet of colors would cost a great deal of money. I asked Barryk why, he basically told me that he wanted to concentrate on what SPI was good at...building high quality primers and clear coats. Not a bad answer, I feel that my area of expertise, if I have one, is painting, I focus on continually improving that skill. Why chastise a company that focuses on what they are good at.

PPG, Dupont, BASF, SW, all the majors, they all work, they all serve a purpose, they are all designed, when directions are followed, to fill a need in the market place, just like SPI. So, I guess it comes down to personal preference, many people prefer Dupont over PPG...I now prefer SPI's primers and clears over what I had been using, for me, they better fill my need. If another product or manufacturer's product better fills someone else's need then that is what they should use. At the end of the day, the basic principals of application and how the products are finished remain the same or at least very similar...so why get pissed if somebody really likes one product over another one? I don't get it.

Sorry for the long rant...but...just my thoughts.

Ray
 
#68 ·
Color is a HUGE cost to the paint manufacturer. And honestly, the NUMBER ONE sales feature bar non is color when it comes to collision repair.

The thought of someone buying an SPI red and thinking it was going to match their car gives me a chuckle. Funny stuff, if they only knew a tiny inkling of what a collision repair painter goes thru to match color, damn that is just fun, I am chuckling right now. :D

Brian
 
#72 ·
Color is a HUGE cost to the paint manufacturer. And honestly, the NUMBER ONE sales feature bar non is color when it comes to collision repair.

The thought of someone buying an SPI red and thinking it was going to match their car gives me a chuckle. Funny stuff, if they only knew a tiny inkling of what a collision repair painter goes thru to match color, damn that is just fun, I am chuckling right now. :D

Brian
yup, factory colors can have 5 alternates darker than,lighter than, greener than, etc,etc,etc,
peril white is a blast to match.
 
#69 ·
gearhead you are indeed a troll in this thread. you have nothing to add .
you ever hear of a search function ? try it . see how many people here have cars that have been done 8-10 years . but i guess you are the only one who can judge them , right . what you dont get is those of us with 40 years in this have already made the mistakes , be conned by the majors , tried the short cuts and finally learned enough about paint to avoid the disasters. i spend a lot of time on the phone with new painters and guys doing their own . we do it that way to avoid the trolls who just confuse them with all the bs . barry spends the majority of his day doing the same thing. without fail it always leads back to some motel6 bs they read on the net .
if your a professional painter fine . share your knowledge . prove me wrong if i am. i need to know . this is how i make my living and have for 40 years. but dont try to blow smoke up my *** with continued bs. i'm old and just dont have the time for it . nor do i care. mt give a damn has been busted for a long time,
 
#71 ·
gearhead you are indeed a troll in this thread. you have nothing to add .
you ever hear of a search function ? try it . see how many people here have cars that have been done 8-10 years . but i guess you are the only one who can judge them , right . what you dont get is those of us with 40 years in this have already made the mistakes , be conned by the majors , tried the short cuts and finally learned enough about paint to avoid the disasters. i spend a lot of time on the phone with new painters and guys doing their own . we do it that way to avoid the trolls who just confuse them with all the bs . barry spends the majority of his day doing the same thing. without fail it always leads back to some motel6 bs they read on the net .
if your a professional painter fine . share your knowledge . prove me wrong if i am. i need to know . this is how i make my living and have for 40 years. but dont try to blow smoke up my *** with continued bs. i'm old and just dont have the time for it . nor do i care. mt give a damn has been busted for a long time,
deflect and bash. AGAIN. I'd like to see a vehicle with said product that's seen weather and used, not garage queen. that the paint is 8-10 y/o
that's not a troll. that asking if my INVESTMENT is going to last..
 
#70 ·
ray , you can go back years on this forum. the more they talk about spi the more the trolls piss and whine. go figure . of all the painters and diy people i have recommended it to i have yet to hear anything bad. with the exception of one friend who hates it ....... why ? because he cant get it down under . he swears he is going to smuggle some home next time.
 
#73 · (Edited)
how bout we put the beakers away and have a test comparison vs other brands?

With that said, I like SEM. Most of their products have been great, and love their prices on their dura mix products. SEM thug in the hizouse! Then you got the 3M Platinum filler posse, and The IR air tool goons. Man, me and my homies get dizown. In any case, we all have our brands that we love.

My current needs for an epoxy is to find a good one that can be sanded down with 600 and not kill my shoulders and have a tad of build.
 
#78 ·
Really, come on now, I am the biggest Evercoat, Meguires and Accustrike welding helmet thug on the street corner!:boxing: LOL

I have said for years, if Evercoat or Meguires made TV's I would buy them, neither of those companies can do wrong in my book. :boxing:

Brian
 
#80 ·
Daily Driver?

Does it really matter...I've seen 30 year old Dupont paint jobs look good and 6 month old Dupont look like trash...My Father in-laws Grande Marquis was the first car I ever painted...done in CIL 2K, sold it 12 years later...had a few rock chips but looked good. I painted a 76 Firebird in the early 90's...the painted only lasted for about 2 hours, the car got hit my a bus.

I'm having a hard time seeing what this proves...there are so many variables and I don't know how you can honestly compare and draw any kind of concrete conclusion and without a doubt say one paint is the best or better than.

You take 10 cars...paint 1 with SPI, 1 with Dupont, 1 with PPG and so on...get BarryK, get a rep from each of the paint companies represented and tell each representative to go pick the vehicle painted in their product. Do you think that everybody is going to pick the vehicle that they represent? I think you have a 1 in 10 chance of picking the car and guessing the product.
 
#87 ·
Hi there Lizer

I think you explained it great when you said that a water molecule doesn't fit between the space in primer molecules...That does it for me...it explains what my old friend John Sammer tried to explain to me in the CIL seminar. My faith in John was never in doubt...that being said, I thank you for the wording...it gives me a visual and I think that's all that Brian was getting at.

Thanks Lizer
 
#91 ·
I guess Brian this is what I'm getting at...I maintain that by sanding a surface, you are in fact opening it up and allowing the chemicals to enter the surface and giving you your chemical adhesion...The sanding gives you the mechanical or Physical adhesion.

I did a test many years ago...I took a panel that had been cleared, 1/3 I left alone..the center 1/3 I sanded with 400 grit, the other 1/3 I sanded with 2000 grit...I then applied 2 coats of clear over the panel.

The part of the panel that hadn't been sanded, the clear came off with a razor blade...The areas of the panel that had been sanded with 400 grit and 2000 grit it was difficult to tell which area had better adhesion, why, because the panel was opened up by sanding and both types of adhesion where present.
 
#92 ·
So I look at that experiment and think

--I don't know how it proves chemical or physical adhesion (meaning, it could only be one, or the other, or both, but there's no way of telling from that experiment). You would have to control for one condition.

--I would think a good test would be sand part of something, leave the other part alone. Go over with a solvent. If it softens up, it would be prone to chemical adhesion as the solids are being dissolved. If it doesn't soften, I would not think it would be prone to chemical adhesion

--I do not understand how the top crust would be different than the center of the substrate. It seems it should be a uniform layer of solids, with the same porosity through and through.
 
#93 ·
As I'm posting, I'm also sanding one of the panels that I used for testing the SPI Epoxy..it has base coat and clear on the panel as well...I will sand 1/2 of the panel and leave 1/2 shiny, the panel is just over 6 months old...do you think I should pour reducer on the panel or let it soak in reducer for say an hour/

Ray
 
#95 ·
Brian, this is a real point of interest for me. When I've gone to these training courses I always asked many questions. This topic was brought up many times and the way it was explained to me was that by sanding, your opening up the pores in the paint and when you apply more paint the solvents in the freshly applied paint permeate the sanded substrate bringing with them the active ingredients that form the chemical bond. I have taken the test panel and soaked it in reducer for 15 minutes. The sanded side is sticky and starting to lift on the edges...I then took a razor blade and around the edges and with a bit of effort I can remove the clear and the base. The Epoxy doesn't seem to be effected. The side that wasn't sanded, the edges are fine, the clear seemed a little stickier than before but a razor blade wouldn't touch it unless I gouged the clear. 10 minutes later, the clear wasn't sticky at all.

Now, I have been told the same story by different manufacturer's as to the benefit of sanding. They have all claimed that it isn't the size of the tooth that gives you the mechanical adhesion...it's more the number of teeth...that's why you get mechanical adhesion even with a fine grit of paper (a finer sanding footprint say with 1,000 grit than with 180 grit...thus more sand scratches and more teeth with 1,000). If chemical adhesion didn't occur by opening up a surface, would a paint company recommend using fine grits like 1,000 and even finer such as 1,500 on a clear blend on a sail panel? Also, I prep everything with 800 wet for base coat...some people swear that 400 grit gives better adhesion...I haven't had a peeler with 800 grit, and now that water born is out, PPG recommends sanding with 800 grit wet for base coat, why, enough of a grit to open the primer and because water born is so thin, 600 grit wet sand scratches have tendency to show...yet adhesion is not a problem.

Opening up primer by sanding allows the solvent to penetrate the primer, the solvents go through the primer, hit the metal and bounce back up. This also helps explain things such as solvent popping, poor adhesion of base coat if proper flash times aren't allowed and host of other scenario's that can effect paint.

I think we have all heard the term, paint needs to breath, the only way paint can breath is if it is porous to a degree. This is evident when a fresh paint job is waxed...the paint can't breath and eventually the clear or the color dies. Again, what we are doing by sanding is opening up the pores even further.

This how I've had it explained to me and it does make sense. One more note, I remember a prepper that did a color change on his car, every thing but under the hood, in the door jambs, inside the trunk and in behind the gas tank flap, he did however sand behind the flap. Within a year, the bottom lip on the inside of his gas tank flap didn't have any paint on it anymore.
 
#96 ·
On another note, if reducers didn't enter a substrate to form chemical bond, why would some be harsher than others, why would there be a need for some reducers that if not used properly that can actually wrinkle an existing finish...if all that was left was mechanical adhesion...that's one problem that most of us have experienced. Reducers, acetone, varsol, gasoline are all solvents, Lacquer paint is cut with Lacquer thinner...what does lacquer thinner do to lacquer paint, it will take it off if to much is used, if the right amount is used it will penetrate the lacquer paint and again, give a chemical bond.

Ray
 
#98 · (Edited)
It all goes back to everything I said earlier about solvents. Solvents dissolve their respective substrate. If you add a lot, it dissolves it all, if you only add a little, it only dissolves a little bit. Eventually the solvent evaporates and you're left with your substrate. Add a teaspoon of water to a pile of sugar, the sugar gets wet, only some goes into solution. Add a gallon of water to sugar, the sugar disappears and goes into solution. When the water's evaporated, you're left with a pile of sugar. It's the same thing that's occurring with lacquer thinner. Solvents have varying degrees of harshness because it all depends on those four chemical properties I discussed earlier.

If the solvent can simultaneously solubilize two different substrates, maybe molecular cross-linking can occur between these two substrates, in which a 'chemical bond' would occur.
 
#100 ·
To dissolve, they need to permeate and that is my point...chemical adhesion, crosslinking, this is not about anybody driving around with epoxy Primer on their cars...it's about understanding how paint reacts. For those of you that feel that this is about anything else...thank god there are people that want to understand...or you might be driving around with less than epoxy primer.
 
#104 ·
Exactly, to open the pores in the paint and allow the stripper to fully work it's chemical reaction.

Reducers are made not only to thin paint, they are designed so that the reaction between the substrate is conducent with the fresh top coat and can cross link or form a chemical bond easier with a sanded substrate, because it's open it allows the chemical reaction to happen easier and faster....other wise, why wouldn't we use paint thinner to thin our paint, even water born reducer/water has active solvents in it in order to form the cross link. Why, if all we would need is mechanical adhesion would they need to put active solvents in the "water"/solvent in water born base coat?
 
#108 ·
Three day tread

This is the point I was trying to make. We have a thread that was started for no good reason except to start a argument. We have learned nothing, everyone still has there own opinion,and anyone that read the post to learn something about painting has probably stopped in disgusts. Why does this have to happen. Who really cares what paint I use or what paint you use. If they dont like your favorite why do you even care. It's not a personal affront to you. If people would stop playing into this it would not last long.
 
#109 ·
This is the point I was trying to make. We have a thread that was started for no good reason except to start a argument. We have learned nothing, everyone still has there own opinion,and anyone that read the post to learn something about painting has probably stopped in disgusts. Why does this have to happen. Who really cares what paint I use or what paint you use. If they dont like your favorite why do you even care. It's not a personal affront to you. If people would stop playing into this it would not last long.
First of all I don't care what paint you or anyone else, uses. Secondly, how is this an argument, to me it's more of a discussion. Perhaps if what your saying is true, that anyone that is wanting to learn something about paint has stopped reading this in disgust kinda tells me that your not interested in learning about paint, because apparently your still reading it.

I have all the respect in the world for Brian, "MartinSR", Lizer, and the others that are actively participating. To me this is important as what I'm trying to put across is what I have been taught to believe for many years, if what I believe is wrong, then I would like to know now so that I don't pass on the information any further. If it is correct, then the information can help people by explaining the value of properly prepping a vehicle, why and how it works. How things work with respect to paint to me is every bit as important as why balancing and blueprinting an engine is important, why correct steering geometry is important, etc.

I joined this site to learn, and yes, I do have opinions, we all do, sharing opinions is what furthers anything in any walk of life.

No argument here, just a willingness to better understand. Sorry if my craving for knowledge disgusts anyone here.

Sincere Best Regards
Ray
 
#111 ·
If you feel threatened and don't want to ask a question concerning SPI, the performance of SPI, the performance of any material or product because people might get irate, I for one would do my best to assist you and defend you for asking a question.

I like SPI, it works and in comparison to what I had been using, I feel it works better...for me. Does that mean that it's the only product anyone should use....NO...why, they all work, some products just work better for some people.

As far as your SPI coming off on your hood with a thinner soaked rag, I would love to give you information that might put your mind at ease and if not hopefully give advice on how to avoid future problems. First of all, how much primer is coming off, is it enough to leave a mark on the primer? Or is it making the color of the thinner soaked rag the same color as the primer?

Would love to help if I can.

Ray
 
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