Spring Pocket Vs Spring Size vs valve lenth Help Needed - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:02 PM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Spring Pocket Vs Spring Size vs valve lenth Help Needed

I measured the spring pocket on the bare alloy heads I've perquired & they look to measure 39mm= 1.550"

but im well confused as to what size springs & locator's I can use with them.
do I need to take spring retainer thickness into account when calculating valve lenth? ising an old valve it looks like a 4.911 valve lenth wouldbe right with an installed hight of 1.70"
im only looking to run a .450- .470 lift cam on the motor what options do i have???

    Advertisement

Last edited by swompz; 05-29-2012 at 06:11 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:05 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by swompz
I measured the spring pocket on the bare alloy heads I've perquired & they look to measure 39mm= 1.550"

but im well confused as to what size springs & locator's I can use with them.
do I need to take spring retainer thickness into account when calculating valve lenth? ising an old valve it looks like a 4.911 valve lenth wouldbe right with an installed hight of 1.70"
im only looking to run a .450- .470 lift cam on the motor what options do i have???
Different retainers can give different installed heights (see diagram), but the thickness of the retainer doesn't enter into it- the measurement is taken from the underside of the retainer to the valve seat. If you use a spring seat locator, the measurement has to include it, up to the bottom of the retainer.

If you were going to run a high lift cam, a set of +0.100" valves would make sense. But if the lift is below 0.500", no need- just use stock length. BTW, your estimate of 4.911" is right at stock length.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 01:13 AM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Glad to know I.measured.valve.correctly, but what about.the.diameter of.the.spring pockets? The springs I was going to use.are.only.1.26" od. But the.pockets on heads are 1.550" can I do this & will I need a locator for the springs??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 01:42 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by swompz
Glad to know I.measured.valve.correctly, but what about.the.diameter of.the.spring pockets? The springs I was going to use.are.only.1.26" od. But the.pockets on heads are 1.550" can I do this & will I need a locator for the springs??
You can use a cup (Manley, Crane, etc.) or a locator that registers off the spring ID (shown below):



There are those who don't use anything except a hardened shim to keep the spring from fretting against the aluminum head.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:32 AM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, so am I right in assuming you can safely fit.springs with an od. Smaller than the spring pocket? In my head the springs need to have something to centralize them.??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 07:50 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by swompz
Ok, so am I right in assuming you can safely fit.springs with an od. Smaller than the spring pocket?
Yes
Quote:
In my head the springs need to have something to centralize them.??
I would, as long as the installed height can be maintained (you don't want to use up too much of the available installed height using a stock length valve and a spring cup or locator). But like I said, there are guys who successfully run the springs on just a hardened shim so the spring doesn't eat into the head.

Last edited by cobalt327; 05-30-2012 at 07:59 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:14 AM
engineczar's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In Flowbench nirvana
Age: 52
Posts: 1,683
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 59 Times in 54 Posts
You definitely need at a minimum a hardened shim to protect the aluminum head. I've used both the cup type and the I.D. locator type. Both work fine. In either case you need to verify the guide diameter to make sure it drops into place ok. As Cobalt said you also need to account for the thickness of the cup which in most cases is .06
__________________
BSE Racing Engines
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:14 AM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
thanks for the input guys.

So to summarize "correct when wrong"

It is safe to use a valve spring with the od of 1.26"
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-174001/
on a alloy cylinder head that has a spring pocket diameter of say 1.54"

However At the least I will need hardened shims to stop gailing of the head, or preferably spring locators or cups.
Installed spring height obviously needs checking.

I cant help but feel that there should be something stopping the bottom of the spring from moving.... A spring locator will obviously do this, however I cant find any listing on summits site of a shouldered locator that has the correct od for pocket & spring fitment.
any ideas lads?
Thanks
again.

Last edited by swompz; 05-30-2012 at 09:44 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:44 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by swompz
thanks for the input guys.

So to summarize "correct when wrong"

It is safe to use a valve spring with the od of 1.26" on a alloy cylinder head that has a spring pocket diameter of say 1.54"

However At the least I will need hardened shims to stop gailing of the head, or preferably spring locators or cups.
Installed spring height obviously needs checking.

I cant help but feel that there should be something stopping the bottom of the spring from moving.... A spring locator will obviously do this, however I cant find any listing on summits site of a shouldered locator that has the correct od for pocket & spring fitment.
any ideas lads?
Thanks
again.
I've never tried to use a stock diameter spring on a 1.54" spring seat, but if I were going to do this, I'd look for a locator like I pictured above that locates off the spring ID.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:49 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
You need to know the ID of your springs. Here are a couple internal locators for 0.570" and 0.505" spring ID.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:51 AM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I've never tried to use a stock diameter spring on a 1.54" spring seat, but if I were going to do this, I'd look for a locator like I pictured above that locates off the spring ID.
Seems like best idea to me two , but cant find anything.
Likewise Im having trouble finding a valve spring set/ caps collets etc the right size for the spring pockets with an open pressure no more than 350lb


springs I was looking at have following specs

Number of Springs Per Valve Single
Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in) 1.260 in.
Damper Spring Included Yes
Spring Rate (lbs/in) 357 lbs./in.
Inside Diameter of Outer Spring (in) 0.875 in.
Valve Spring Style Standard
Coated No
Retainers Included Yes
Retainer Material Steel
Locks Included Yes
Lock Style 7 degree
Lock Groove Quantity 1-groove
Lock Material Steel
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:52 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by swompz
Seems like best idea to me two , but cant find anything.
Likewise Im having trouble finding a valve spring set/ caps collets etc the right size for the spring pockets with an open pressure no more than 350lb
See post #10.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:07 AM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
See post #10.
So would they locate on the valve guide oposed to the edge of spring seat?

if that was the case with valve spring cups , Im in business.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MA...6-16/?rtype=10
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:27 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,036
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by swompz
So would they locate on the valve guide oposed to the edge of spring seat?

if that was the case with valve spring cups , Im in business.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MA...6-16/?rtype=10
Those will work if the guide boss OD is around 0.525". Obviously, if the guide boss is larger, the cup ID can be enlarged by hand.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:41 AM
swompz's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: England
Posts: 59
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Those will work if the guide boss OD is around 0.525". Obviously, if the guide boss is larger, the cup ID can be enlarged by hand.
Theres no guide boss as such the heads have bronze valves fitted directly into the head face.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Making and measuring shock mounts. And cutting spring pocket MotorHead Lon Suspension - Brakes - Steering 2 04-19-2010 03:48 PM
Valve spring size redride Engine 2 03-09-2009 04:26 PM
model a leaf spring size 29modela Suspension - Brakes - Steering 1 03-25-2005 12:06 PM
Spring size??? gpeak Engine 3 12-25-2003 08:39 PM
Valve Spring Pocket Depth, etc. The Vandal Engine 3 03-26-2003 07:10 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.