Hot Rod Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Start-up Blues. I need a clue.

11K views 11 replies 8 participants last post by  poncho62 
#1 ·
My daughter's 74 El Camino has a stock 350 auto transmission. It recently came up lame. She called yesterday to say it has an intermittant no crank-no start issue.

The symptoms: Turn key and hear a click (near the starter solenoid- I think). Sometimes it does start up. I have checked:

  • The cables and connectors. They are clean, shiny and secure.
  • The battery cable that goes to the starter is new and not strained.
  • The starter is a year old and I have cleaned all the connectors.
  • There is a secure starter brace in place.
  • The ground wire from the battery goes to the top of a chromium alternator bracket, but is tight.

There has been some issue with her ignition lock cylinder- there is deefinitly some over travel. She has to turn the key way over to get the car to start. The ignition switch is only a couple of years old.

Could the ignition switch be too loose or have slid too far down (away from the rod) and cause this problem?

She starts a new job in a week and I want to send her on her way in reliable transportation.



 
See less See more
1
#2 ·
In my opinion I'd take a long look at the solenoid, IMHO it's the weakest link in the system. I would pull the starter and then the solenoid from the starter. The brass disc inside is probably burnt and not making proper contact when energized. A piece of emery cloth will clean it and the posts it comes in contact with.
 
#3 ·
[*]The ground wire from the battery goes to the top of a chromium alternator bracket, but is tight.
The battery ground should go directly to the motor block near the starter, a ground strap or wire of same size goes from same spot on the motor block to the frame and a smaller gauge wire goes from the same area on the block up to the alternator.

The clicking sound just before engagement you are hearing is usually caused by low current, either by a bad connection, a battery getting old or both.
 
#4 ·
OK I'll move the ground strap- I never liked the way it was routed in the first place. The ground strap from block to chassis is in place. I'm not sure how the alt is grounded other than the ground strap to the alt bracket. Thanks.

The battery is good. I have just load tested it and have checked for voltage drop at the battery... all good. I pulled the ignition switch and tried taking the slack out. No improvement. I also checked for any damage or looseness in the Neutral safety switch. It's fine. I cleaned all the tabs and connectors.

I am just finishing up putting a new starter in. I bought it a couple of months ago when all this started, but hadn't got to it since the trouble seemed to be less frequent after I put the starter brace in and tightened the wires to the starter, cleaned the battery terminal, etc,.

I'll get back to you all after I button her up and put a few starts on her.
 
#5 ·
To quote a former member here, there is no such thing as too many grounds. Two body to frame grounds isn't a bad thing and make sure that both the engine and the frame have a solid ground to the battery - when is T.I. going to be out of moderator jail (I miss him.)

FOSDICK

OP, put the starter on it. Post a picture - early 70's El Caminos are under valued and rated! They are sweet rides.
 
#6 ·
tilt or straight column... if tilt... does the upper column wobble. .

with either.. tilt in the straight position.. can you turn the key to the ACC position.. there is a gear rack driven off a plastic gear that is shaft driven off the back of the ignition switch...

its possible that the ignition switch is out of position. it is adjustable slightly.. .needs to have an alignment pin thru it with the key out of the lock.. so the lock cylinder is locked.. sorry.. i have seen too many worn out locks..

it is totally possible that the ignition switch insides are worn or burned away.. replacements can be had really cheep..






once in a great while. the switch push rod gets bent. this will allow it to flex when you are trying to start the engine as there is a lot of spring pressure in the cranking position.


now... to make mid 60s thru late 80s GM's that are hard to start.. and i should explain this.. the big can solenoids are NOT grounded in a normal fashion.. they are grounded thru the bottom post that hooks to the starter brushes... thru the armature.. the ground brushes and the case..

i have measured this on a starter tester.. sometimes the PULL in current for the solenoid measured over 50 amps..

that is a TON of current needed to kick the solenoid plunger in while extending the drive teeth before the contact disc hits the heads of the brass bolts inside the solenoid cap sending power to the starter brushes.

what i normally do... if tube headers have not been installed.. i use a 1970 dodge dart starter relay.. i usually hang it on a heater box stud..

i run a 16 or 18 gauge ground wire from one of the push on terminals sometimes to the mounting stud.. ..

on the middle stud that has a 1/4" hex head machine screw.. i run that in with yellow crimp terminals in 10 gauge to the GM solenoid 3 o clock position S terminal. the wire i removed from the S terminal gets extended to the other push on terminal. i have used a ring terminal on the end and a small nut and bolt with tape to wrap the connection.. so i have not cut the original terminal off the harness.

i add a 3/8 yellow ring terminal with 10 gauge wire over to to a 5/16" yellow ring terminal so there is battery power to the threaded stud on the mopar relay.. this drops the amp draw thru the ignition switch to around 2 amps in the cranking position.

you won't believe its the same car when you try to start it.. it will engage the starter and spin the motor so fast... it blows owners away. it also reduces the voltage drop to the ignition switch and increases the power for the ignition system.

if you have headers... you may want to change to a ford solenoid on the firewall above the back of the tube.. use a single 2 gauge battery cable to the starter solenoid.. wire it like a ford.. everything runs off the ford solenoid... a top post to the S terminal allows the starter to engage anytime the ford solenoid engages and sends power down the 2 gauge.. i usually have to buy a pair of replacement 2 gauge ends and shorten the usually too long premade starter cable..

oh... you will want to take a pair of jumper cables... hook both clamps of one end to the negative battery terminal.. hook the other pairs to the engine block and see if it will crank... this eliminates the issue of a funky negative cable connection..
 
#7 ·
Waynep712, I may go with the ford solenoid. I have one on my Blazer. It's a great fix.

Question: ".needs to have an alignment pin thru it with the key out of the lock.. so the lock cylinder is locked.. sorry.. i have seen too many worn out locks.. " I don't know what you mean here, could you please elaborate. I don't seem to be able to place the Lock cylinder in ACC.
 
#10 ·
worn out lock cylinders may not stay in place with the key out.. (don't need a key to turn them) many people don't notice...

new lock cylinders are always a great idea on any column tear down.. they just wear out then jam at the worst possible time.

if you cannot turn the key/lock cylinder to the ACC position... please verify that the switch is properly adjusted.. but the gear and the rack inside the column are probably ONE tooth off.. if its a tilt column it may have more issues with the rack ... it has a loop like a bottle opener to allow the column to tilt and still operate the pushrod to the switch..

so you might end up with a tear down on the column... i think somebody linked you some stuff..
 
#8 ·
I assume my '75 GMC truck uses the same tilt column as your daughter's '74 El Camino. If you have good power connections under the hood (lots of good advice has been provided), the problem may be in the "rack" that is connected to the ignition switch mechanism.

The rack is made out of cheap pot metal, and every time you turn the key switch there is a gear on the end that engages the rack, which moves the rod that is connected to the switch for the starter (mounted lower on the column). If that rack fractures or partially breaks away you will get intermittent actuation of the starter and the ACC position may not work.

Dorman - Help Ignition Switch Kit - With Tilt Wheel 83211: Advance Auto Parts

A new GM ignition rack kit is about $12 from most parts stores, but there is quite a bit of dis-assembly of the column to replace it. You would need a steering wheel puller and lock plate removal tool (the plate under the horn button), but both can be borrowed from Autozone or other stores. If you do take it apart, make sure you also tighten up and use lock-tight on the bolts that hold the tilt mechanism in place. They often loosen up and you get a lot of play in the mechanism.


Bruce
 

Attachments

Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top