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Old 08-09-2011, 07:40 PM
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starter issues

Hello there I am new to the sight so please bear with me. I recently swapped out my automatic in my 83 gmc sierra classic to a muncie 4 speed that I took out of an 83 gmc sierra. Both have 350 crate motors. I've got the tranni installed but when I try to start it the starter dosen't fully engage the flywheel and it chatters. My battery is fine and I am using a charger/booster just to make sure. I've tried about every combination of shims, didnt help. The motor will turn over by hand fine so its not an engine issue. I am using the starter that came out of the donor truck which is also the same as the starter in my truck. The flywheel came of a gmc van and is 268 tooth count which is the same as both trucks. My truck has an external balance and the donor truck has an internal balance camshaft. Hence the vans flywheel which matched up!! I'm stumpped!! My mechanic friend is getting me the starter out of the van just to see if its different but I don't think it is. Hopping for some thoughts. Thanks!!!!!
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:50 PM
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The fly wheels are differant
168-Tooth, External Engine Balance,
153-Tooth, Internal Engine Balance,

"My truck has an external balance and the donor truck has an internal balance camshaft."

So if your trucks motor is external balanced you will need the fly wheel for that application.

Last edited by pepi; 08-09-2011 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 08-10-2011, 02:33 PM
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Yea I got a flywheel that is off an externally balanced engine (the van) and its on the truck now. Sorry if I wasn't clear. So it's got the right flywheel.
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:54 PM
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I would say you are using the wrong starter. JMO



Cole
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:33 PM
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Yup that would be the next consideration, the starter. Could check the action of the starter gear, make sure the solenoid is pulling that gear all the way forward, no obstructions on the shaft. With the starter out, the lug that is on the bottom of the solenoid, disconnect that so the starter dose not spin the motor and then apply bat V to the solenoid and watch the action of that gear in the nose.

It sounds like you have two different starter sitting there if I am reading the post correctly, could have mixed them up, would not be the first time that happened. Not major but none the less a PITA, starters are no feather weights.
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Old 08-11-2011, 06:37 PM
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The only externally balanced engine I can think of off the top of my head is a 400 small block. Did one of these vehicles have a 400 small block in it? If so, that flywheel WILL NOT work with an internally balanced engine such as the 305, 350, 327, 307, 327, etc;

As mentioned above, there are two flywheel tooth counts 153 or 168. Match the starter to the flywheel and your problem will be solved. If you have a 153 tooth flywheel. Look for a starter from a 1970 Olds product with a 455. It will be a high torque starter designed for the 153 tooth flywheel and will bolt directly to your small block.

Or, go with one of the gear reduction starters off like a 95 Chevy 1/2 ton pick up with a 350. That starter will be VERY light, will pack one hell of an electrical punch, and will start an engine even if the battery is weak as it draws less amperage than the old style starters. It is also designed to work with a 153 tooth flywheel.

If you need a 168 tooth starter, buy one for a '69 Camaro with a 350.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:31 PM
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Thanks guys. Im still learning alot of this stuff but all I know is my engine has an external weigh on the crankshaft where the flywheel bolts up. On the donor truck it does not. My engine is a 350 as is the donor truck and both tooth counts on there flywheels are 168. Also both starter look exactlly alike.
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawabuggy
The only externally balanced engine I can think of off the top of my head is a 400 small block. Did one of these vehicles have a 400 small block in it? If so, that flywheel WILL NOT work with an internally balanced engine such as the 305, 350, 327, 307, 327, etc;

As mentioned above, there are two flywheel tooth counts 153 or 168. Match the starter to the flywheel and your problem will be solved. If you have a 153 tooth flywheel. Look for a starter from a 1970 Olds product with a 455. It will be a high torque starter designed for the 153 tooth flywheel and will bolt directly to your small block.

Or, go with one of the gear reduction starters off like a 95 Chevy 1/2 ton pick up with a 350. That starter will be VERY light, will pack one hell of an electrical punch, and will start an engine even if the battery is weak as it draws less amperage than the old style starters. It is also designed to work with a 153 tooth flywheel.

If you need a 168 tooth starter, buy one for a '69 Camaro with a 350.
olds starters mount on the left side of the block, not the right side like chevy.
also, i do trans R&R for a living and have never seen a 153 tooth flexplate (OEM) on any 86 and newer chevy engine for a truck.

to the OP, if the tooth count was the same, then why would you change the starter? did the truck start correctly before? have you tested the starter off of the donor truck to verify that its even good?
have you tried the starter (the origional starter you had on the truck) that you took off your truck to confirm that its a flywheel problem and not a starter issue?
and lastly, have you pulled the starter drive into the start position to verify that the starter teeth are meshing properly with the flywheel? is there a gap?
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Old 08-12-2011, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 83 sierra classic
Thanks guys. Im still learning alot of this stuff but all I know is my engine has an external weigh on the crankshaft where the flywheel bolts up. On the donor truck it does not. My engine is a 350 as is the donor truck and both tooth counts on there flywheels are 168. Also both starter look exactlly alike.
The 1986 - up SB Chevrolet V8/4.3L V6 engines with a one-piece rear main seal use a 168 tooth counter weighted flywheel and use a starter with off-set starter bolts. The flex plate counter weight is to compensate for internally balanced engine that uses a one piece main seal crank flange that does not have a counterweight.

The 153 tooth flex plate has a 3.58" crank flange bolt circle and the 163 tooth flex plate has a 3.00" crank flange bolt circle. The smart fellers at the factory made them that way so they would be mechanic proof.

I don't know what 3-bolt torque converter bolt circle is used with the different transmissions. I used a TCI flex plate with 10.750" and 11.000" torque converter bolt patterns on my 1991 S10 Blazer 4.3L V6 with a 700R4 transmission which was 10.750"

Last edited by MouseFink; 08-12-2011 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 08-12-2011, 08:52 PM
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Thanks again guys. I'm gonna take the advice and disconnect the motor from the starter and run it and see how it meshess up. Maybe i need a different starter for a manual flywheel???? I will research it.
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnsmith10
have you tested the starter off of the donor truck to verify that its even good?
have you tried the starter (the origional starter you had on the truck) that you took off your truck to confirm that its a flywheel problem and not a starter issue?
and lastly, have you pulled the starter drive into the start position to verify that the starter teeth are meshing properly with the flywheel? is there a gap?
This is good advice there is no difference in starters in an auto or manual trans.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?...0starter&dds=1

The only difference you will see here , looking at the OEM parts is one starter is Staggered and the other is not all fit; Big/Small Block, GM 90 Degree V6 ; no mention of auto or standard/manual trans.
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:06 PM
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Ok so I bought a new starter with a wider mouth opening for the gear and what I found is that the teeth on the starter with some shims will engage the flywheel and turn it some but it is a tight fit and the teeth stay stuck in the flywheel. I can't seem to lower it enough to have it mess corectly because after about 4 shims it bottoms out on the bellhousing of the transmissinon. And it appears to need to be lowered some more. I re counted the teeth on the flywheel and it is 168 which is what I had before. ????????
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Old 08-13-2011, 07:26 PM
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Could I grind out some of the bellhousing on the tranni? I know it sounds crazy but I'm getting desperate. It should work all the parts fit together great except for the starter.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepi
This is good advice there is no difference in starters in an auto or manual trans.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?...0starter&dds=1

The only difference you will see here , looking at the OEM parts is one starter is Staggered and the other is not all fit; Big/Small Block, GM 90 Degree V6 ; no mention of auto or standard/manual trans.

NOT TRUE

Manual trans cars/trucks and Auto trans cars/trucks use different starters.
Manual trans starters have noses that are cast iron and a bit thinner than the AT versions.
The AT starter will not even fit into most manual trans bell housings.

If you are using a 621 bell for the Muncie----you should get a starter for a manual trans vehicle----suggest a starter for a 70 Chevelle with a manual trans.

If you are using a truck bellhousing, you will need to get a spacer ring for the big bore in the bell housing as the bearing retainer on the Muncie is too small for the hole in the truck bell.
Spacers are available from McCleod Clutches---also some transmission vendors are offering a larger bearing retainer for the Muncie to go into a truck bell.
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Old 08-13-2011, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 83 sierra classic
Could I grind out some of the bellhousing on the tranni? I know it sounds crazy but I'm getting desperate. It should work all the parts fit together great except for the starter.
Get the CORRECT manual transmission starter for your flywheel.
Do not grind away on a bell housing----could be dangerous.

large flywheel-----168 tooth-----big bell-----manual trans staggered bolt starter.
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