Hot Rod Forum banner

Starter or Not

2K views 25 replies 7 participants last post by  71bbvette 
#1 ·
I know this topic must have been covered at some point but I can't find the exact situation like mine. I have a Chevy 454 4spd with 10:1 compression mostly stock specs for the car, 71 Vette. The starter works great at first start up when totally cold but as soon as I shut it off after running only a few minutes (not enough time for heat soak) and then attempt to re-start it acts like it does want to engage the starter gear fully into the fly wheel and makes a bad grinding sound, the type that raises the hair on the back of your neck. Cold start = no grinding and starts right up - - warm = very bad sounds and no turn over of the motor.

What I have done so far is the old Ford Solenoid trick with rerouting the wires away from the heat of the headers. The problem I originally thought was the "S" wire going to the "S" solenoid was only putting out about 5 - 6 volts before the Ford solenoid went in. Now it has a fresh 12 volts from the new set up. This is also a new starter from Auto Zone (Mignt be junky starter) that I've had tested and they say it is good. What am I needing to test or should I try a high dollar starter?
 
#5 ·
71bbvette said:
Thank you for the reply. Your question is painful but true. Do you have experience with this situation? And this starter you recommended?
Yes, I have one on my 34 after buying a cheap Chinese mini starter. It has worked perfectly so far. Didn't mean to sound so harsh :(

Vnce
 
#6 ·
Vince

I appreciate the replys and the direction. I'll be back under the Vette this weekend (4th in a row) to pull it all out again. Did you find a decent deal on the Powermaster Ultra Torque and who sells them?

Thanks Rob for the article it did help. I think the holes in the starter mounts are a little bigger than the bolts causing some slop (yes, they are the original starter bolts). From all that I have read so far it seems the fit between the bolt and the hole should be tight if not the start can move causing misalignment, even if it moves just a very small amount.
 
#7 ·
71 Corvette.........While you are under the car, check where the ground strap from the battery is bolted to the frame. I have seen corrosion causing power losses there........Check all your connections while you are at it.
 
#8 ·
Poncho62, thanks for the suggestion. I actually removed all the paint around where the ground connects to the frame, it is clean. Also, did the block to the frame. I'm going to go back and recheck it again while I'm under. I wish the wife was on top of me as much as that damn car!
 
#10 ·
Hey Rob - yes, I did discover that while researching. I'm not sure which I have. What I'm not clear on is the thread size or the diameter of the body of the bolt different. In other words, are the threads the same with a thicker body for the metric or SAE? I'm learning so bare with me.
 
#11 ·
71bbvette said:
Vince

I appreciate the replys and the direction. I'll be back under the Vette this weekend (4th in a row) to pull it all out again. Did you find a decent deal on the Powermaster Ultra Torque and who sells them?
I'm not aware of any great deals on them, I just ordered mine from Jegs. I knew if there was a problem with it that it would be an easy exchange.

Vince
 
#13 ·
Yes, I've shimmed it 3 or 4 different ways. Same result great first start but after 2 or 3 start ups it grinds whether it is hot or cold until I take it all off again and reinstall it. Then it repeats all over again. Thats why I think it's a mechanical alignment deal. Block is not cracked thank goodness.

After reading as much as I care to about starters and the problems with them, now I know why misery loves company. I pulled the starter this morning again thinking that the problem was the holes in the starter were too big for the bolts allowing it to move and be out of place, but thats not the case. There's very little movement between where the bolt are knurled but still not real tight. I've read that the fit should be so fit in this area that you can barely turn the bolt by hand. I also read that you should not use any washers as my bolts had lock washers on them so I left them on. Any suggestions from here would be appreciated. I don't want to chase ghost problems or spend 200+ on a starter if the situation is going to continue. Thanks again to all that have replied and I'll take more suggestions.
 
#14 ·
71BBV

That is a good "Q" but I want to say with 95% Certainty that the threads are 3/8"th's 16' .

DAMN GM with their SMETRICS {my word for 1/2 standard 1/2 metric bolts}

I wish they would have just committed to one or the other.

I the Bolts were brand new I would say the Knurled would be almost not finger turnable.

It should be almost zero movement .

One way to find out is to {by finger tightening only} try a 3/8th's 16 , then the size close to it in metric .

That would tell for sure.

As far as I know there are 2 different starter nose typed SAE & metric with corresponding bolts.

As far As I know its the matching of the bolts to the cone that is the most important issue.

For the next time & to all that read this never give up your old starter when replacing with a New / Re-manufactured unit .

The time saved by having your old nose cone is not worth the core deposit paid.





R :thumbup:
 
#17 ·
Have you checked the clearance between the starter shaft and ring gear? it should be 1/8 inch if not this will occur the tool is ussually sold with the az starters if not a peice of 1/8 welding rod will work it should be snug when pushed up from the bottom between the flywheel gear and starter shaft. Also did you put the stock end brace back on?
 
#18 ·
The bell housing is in the way to fit the measuring tool between the two. If you know of a method to check on a 4spd car then please share. The wear marks on the starter gear look to be about right. I'm going back under tonight (this damn work thing keeps getting in the way) after buying new starter bolts. If it works right for several starts and then starts to grind it has to be moving just enough to cause the misalignment and then the grind starts. Man, that is like the worst sound ever. I appreciate the thoughts.
 
#19 ·
I have heard of some guys taking off the solenoid's to access the gears to get the proper shim.

Doing so should allow you the room to get to the gears & being able to manually engage the Bendix.


QUIT that damn job you are "starter man" now! LOL!? :confused: :nono:




Rob :thumbup:
 
#20 ·
Thanks to all that replied to this post. A special thanks to Rob for hanging with me all the way through. We finally got it done. The Cost - At least 40 hours of "back on the pavement" time, 4 starters, multiple Auto Zombie arguments, 2 new starter bolts, many hours of online searching, one treat of a divorce from the wife (she knows she's gone before the car goes), complete rewiring of the starter system (including a Ford solenoid on my beloved Vette, yuk). The result, clean starts with no grind - Priceless.
 
#24 ·
I don't think I'll make it this year to the GN. It is usually on my daughter's birthday weekend. If anything I might sneak up for Friday just to smell the nitro and see a couple runs.

As far as the starter posting I found a good mix of information here and there but not one full listing of what to do first, and then next and then next if necessary. My situation was a combination of a lot of problems but the most important was the relationship between the starter cone and starter bolts. I had no idea how precise it had to be. Anyway, I'm rambling on now about a headache that is now gone. Later brother.
 
#25 ·
Well Reason I ask you to Ramble on is to write it in the WIKI so the next "starter man" can do it in 20 hours. :D

Unless you like to see others suffer :evil:

J/K

~~~~~~~~~

Well We have leftover tickets for Friday this year because we got rained out last year.

If you go & want to meet let me know.

I got a buddy in Deland "Bugs" can't get him to go with us yet. :confused:

He is the only HR.com member I have met in person so far.

Unless I win a Lotto I will only be able to make it for last years tickets.


Good luck


R :thumbup:
 
#26 ·
OK, if I can put it together and go on that Friday I'll give you a call.

As for the WIKI posting on the starter, I'll see about posting on the WIKI after I peice together the best articles I found. It is not that the information wasn't in there, you just had to search around and put it togther. There is an order of problem solving that makes best use of your time and cash. Solving the cheapest and most simple problems first is always the way to go. I went the other (wrong) route and started with rewiring and buying new starters.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top