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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2009, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
Hmmm... can all be calculated... living area above 40lbs is standard? live load is several cars plus whatever other things I put in... not too much else...snow load - gambrel roof so not much... concrete would be adequate for pillars... 1/2" rebar for reinforcing... steel plate with anchor bolts.... bending momement - you should be able to tell me based on the dimensions I gave you...radius of gyration - welded bar to the bottoms of the beams should counteract.... WAIT! Wait a second you sound like you are a g-damn engineer and instead of helping you sound like you are trying to intimidate me into getting advice from a pro. I know that's your opinion. But I go online and look at other peoples questions on the same exact issue- what size beam do I need and not one person brought up the radius of gyration. Give me a break.


O.K., let's take a step back here. All I see that he's doing is trying to eliminate a possible occupied burial plot near your town. In this case, I'd follow his advice (and that of multiple others--including myself...) and please call in for some professional help. Most anyone here could easily say, "Just use the beams, they'll be fine. Probably will hold a 100 pregnant hippos up there". But by the same token, I bet the same guy who says that would also lose his lunch at the thought that his advice got someone injured or killed. In matters like this, "bench building" on the internet is completely different than dealing with a pro who has studied for years on how to not get people killed. That said, we may not have the concrete answers you are looking for, but our advice is still solid.



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Old 02-27-2009, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
Hmmm... can all be calculated... living area above 40lbs is standard? live load is several cars plus whatever other things I put in... not too much else
It's the "several", "whatever", and "live" that make the biggest trouble. You're dealing with unknown variables in situations that are not typical. It's not like taking existing span tables for typical live loads in residences and building a nice, safe 2-story home. Your situation is more like a custom industrial problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
...snow load - gambrel roof so not much... concrete would be adequate for pillars... 1/2" rebar for reinforcing...
A gambrel roof still transmits its loads to the outer walls and it still requires a certain amount of bracing to keep from spreading those outer walls. I don't think it would be able to pull or stretch those beams, but you still have to consider all loads carried by the foundation and all forces acting at each connection along the way from foundation to ridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
steel plate with anchor bolts.... bending momement - you should be able to tell me based on the dimensions I gave you...
Sorry, not an engineer. I could look up formulas and plug in numbers, but in a situation like this, what I don't know could kill you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
radius of gyration - welded bar to the bottoms of the beams should counteract.... WAIT! Wait a second you sound like you are a g-damn engineer and instead of helping you sound like you are trying to intimidate me into getting advice from a pro. I know that's your opinion. But I go online and look at other peoples questions on the same exact issue- what size beam do I need and not one person brought up the radius of gyration. Give me a break.
Nope. I'm not an engineer. I used to work in the construction business -- erecting pre-engineered steel buildings as well as carpentry -- so I've had some close encounters with some engineers. I designed and built my own house, too. I don't mean I hired someone; I even raised the 6:12 pitch, 36' + 2' overhang, 2x6 trusses by myself (using a hand-cranked boat winch and 3 2x6's). The loads for residential frame houses, garages and typical farm buildings are well-documented and there are lots of safe design choices to handle them. Your situation is completely atypical.

You are taking a building designed for typical farm usage and converting it to a purpose which far exceeds the loads and strains anticipated by that design. In addition, you are looking at a building which appears to be suffering some damage from trying to simply hold itself up. What happens when that leaning wall decides to lay down its burden and rest?

Intimidate you? No, I just want to scare you into thinking about the loads involved and the consequences of guessing wrongly.

Maybe you or someone else will drive into that 2nd story bay a little too fast one day because the wind is howling and you want to get out of the cold quickly, slam on the brakes and impose just enough extra ripples and wiggles to make the last remaining good attachment between the leaning wall and the 2nd story sill to shear. One side of the gambrel drops a little, but only in the middle of that wall. Now the wall and roof in that area are hanging from the end gambrel trusses while pushing the other side outward. Eggs are easier to break out of than into, so the gussets on a couple of middle gambrel trusses on the other side give a bit. This causes more sag on the other side, more load on the end gambrels, more push up and out on the ones that just gave way a bit, and so on.

Are the anchors holding the beams and the rebar in the pillars good enough to stop a domino collapse?

I could probably get away with putting overload springs on my 3/4 ton pickup and hauling 5 tons on it. It probably wouldn't be real spectacular when the next weakest part failed. Building failures sometimes make the news, though.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouch


A gambrel roof still transmits its loads to the outer walls and it still requires a certain amount of bracing to keep from spreading those outer walls. I don't think it would be able to pull or stretch those beams, but you still have to consider all loads carried by the foundation and all forces acting at each connection along the way from foundation to ridge.


....

Are the anchors holding the beams and the rebar in the pillars good enough to stop a domino collapse?

I could probably get away with putting overload springs on my 3/4 ton pickup and hauling 5 tons on it. It probably wouldn't be real spectacular when the next weakest part failed. Building failures sometimes make the news, though.
Your point of shearing the bolts off with stopping is good. If my pillars are 2x2' wide concrete that is tied into the floor i don't see that moving with stopping a car. I should measure the wall and get back. I know its not level, but I should be able to get how far off level it is. My guess was 2" over 8'. I'm not worried about that moving and I'd fix it if I ever noticed over time it was leaning more out or what not. But it appears to be perfectly fine. To be clear the current barn is supported on the walls around the perimeter and is gambrel. My addition would almost be its own building inside that. I would tie into some of the framing members on the gambrel to help stiffen the structure of the overall barn. The barn is 100 years old. There is a lot of additional bracing added to the barn. One of the walls is in need of repair and the blockwork below it needs some work other than that all other walls are in good shape. With the way I am laying the beams both those walls are in great shape apart from the lean. But I've read house foundation walls also can have acceptable amount of lean on them as well before they are a problem. So your point is if the wall gives way and pulls over my pillars. If I go with 2'x2' that would be 2'x2' pillars every 12 feet. Seems unlikely it would be off kilter that much to throw the pillars down. Also considering its been up for so long without a problem. The tie in would more likely be just a measure to ensure it can never move. If I don't tie into the wall then it would be easier to rebuild that wall if I ever do in the future. The splitface block like on the barn is no longer made, so I was told. I've looked at a few manufactured splitface blocks made now and they dont' match up even close. Anyhow I'll see about getting someone to evaluate it sooner or later. This is abig project that will take a bit of time.
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Old 02-27-2009, 08:25 PM
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You sound determined to do it your way despite all the good advice given here.

I'll give you a couple more things to think about.

Even though the edge of the slab seems real thick you just may be seeing a thin, integrated beam (forget the technical term) of a monolithic slab.

Do you know what kind of steel beams you really have? Do a google search and you will see they typically are sized by flange width and weght per pound of beam. Then you can determine their real load bearing capacity (based on industry wide steel beam tables). Just because it looks big means absolutely nothing.

I don't think you can spread out the load of the vehicles to determine floor loading. Isn't what you have more like point loading with 4 very small points (the wheels) per vehicle?

A parallel I see here is one of people that build decks and expect to have them hold to only find out when they fail they can fail catastrophically without warning.

I just see a big parallel-o-gram one day deciding its time to shift and the whole thing come crashing down.

I wouldn't have a problem trying what you want to do but I'd damn well spend a few thousand dollars to have an engineer tell me what will/won't work.

You don't have to try and convince me one way or the other. I'm not the one that is going to have to live with it.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
The second floor will be a paint booth and blast booth with cars being on that floor.
So worst case scenario there could be 3 cars? on the second floor (14500# ish) plus equipment, the couch, refrigerator, and tv from upstairs, it probably would be over 20000# easily. The safety factor for buildings is 2, you would have to design it to support double the maximum total load, and that's assuming nothing has momentum

You really should consult an engineer- it's cheaper to build it right the first time than to lose all your vehicles when it fails.
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave5605
You sound determined to do it your way despite all the good advice given here.
Well I would like to get a professional to look at it if possible. Maybe a student at MSU. That would be cheap I'd hope.

Quote:
Even though the edge of the slab seems real thick you just may be seeing a thin, integrated beam (forget the technical term) of a monolithic slab.
The wall is within 4 feet or less of the trough. The trough is 10 plus however thick the bottom is. I highly doubt they did an integrated beam to save material. I guess its possible, but I'm not counting on it. I'd probably find out before when I drill down to insert steel to link the columns to the existing slab.

Quote:
Do you know what kind of steel beams you really have? Do a google search and you will see they typically are sized by flange width and weght per pound of beam. Then you can determine their real load bearing capacity (based on industry wide steel beam tables). Just because it looks big means absolutely nothing.
20" by 6" by 1/2" H beam. I did a calculation on a standard I beam to get each weighing about 1500lbs -1700lbs but that was at approx 18". The guy had told me 18" and top to bottom it is exactly 20". Do you have any recommended site that tells what spans are for ibeams? I found this guy's formula and I can get a rough estimate on moment of inertia(I) or what the max inertia (I) could be, but he doesn't go into detail on how that's used to determine what beam size.. maybe there are some charts I am missing.

http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/729814.html

The beam formulas for this loading are:

M (maximum bending moment) = wl^2/8
D (deflection @ center of span) = 5wl^4/384 EI
NOTE: Maximum deflection is limited to D = l/360 = 14 x 12 / 360 = 0.46 in
w (load per foot) = 1200 lb per ft
l (beam span) = 14 ft
Where E is a constant for steel = 30,000,000 psi
And I is the moment of inertia


Quote:
I don't think you can spread out the load of the vehicles to determine floor loading. Isn't what you have more like point loading with 4 very small points (the wheels) per vehicle?
I did look that up and you could make the same arguement for having a grand piano and its all supported on tiny legs, but that works in homes. I think the load is spread out across the joists via all the tie ins. I guess if it doesn't work the car will come down on the joists Then it will be spread equally and I'll know I have to beef up the floor boards. But I think the 2x should be fine.

Quote:

A parallel I see here is one of people that build decks and expect to have them hold to only find out when they fail they can fail catastrophically without warning.
Wood makes a lot of noise and then fails instantly. Steel starts to sag. While not signalling any noise at the point of failure it is safer in the case you exceed the load. Of course in fires it fails a lot quicker at somethign around 700 degrees.

Quote:

I just see a big parallel-o-gram one day deciding its time to shift and the whole thing come crashing down.

I wouldn't have a problem trying what you want to do but I'd damn well spend a few thousand dollars to have an engineer tell me what will/won't work.

You don't have to try and convince me one way or the other. I'm not the one that is going to have to live with it.
WOW several thousands? I didn't think we were talking much money to have an engineer look at it. Hopefullly its not that much - probably less if I have everything planned out and they just look at it to approve it. If it is that much I'll have to do some more homework. If I understand/read up and research all the things involved I would feel comfortable with my judgement along with others input. But saying I could only do this with the consultation of an engineer is kinda like saying you can't work on your car without a licensed mechanic. Or work on gas lines without a license, or furnaces. Hah okay so sometimes it is prudent, Anyhow I'm not saying I'm not open to it. But right now I'm just trying to come up with a plan of everything and how it will work. Thanks for your reply. -Mike
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:19 AM
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The only thing I see here is someone way over his head and someone who doesn't know what he doesn't know and that will kill him.

I am in construction and guarantee you that the first time the county or whomever has jurisdiction here sees what you are doing, you are going to find out what a red tag is and what a cease and desist order is.

FYI, you need a certified, licensed structural engineer and build to his specs, not use what he drew as a loose guideline, and then have it inspected, probably several times by several people, including the engineer you hired. This is NOT student design work.

Don't be surprised if this project costs $300,000.00. What you are proposing is not something that can be done on the cheap.
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Old 02-28-2009, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
...The floor will be made of 2by planking and possibly finished with a lighter material on top or metal sheet for fire safety...
This raises yet another red flag, the floor. Uniform Building Code requires not only that the floor of a garage be fire resistant, it must be made of material impervious to fluids and chemicals. In most cases, the only viable alternative turns out to be concrete...either a poured concrete floor or concrete planks. I don't believe sheet metal will qualify due to possible corrosion and reaction to certain chemicals but it might. As with the other questions raised by this project, it is best answered by an engineer.

And the metal floor may also not pass code for fire Resistance. Metal is a great conductor of heat...so it will pass the heat of a fire right through to the planks below. Basically, the floor material must be resistant to fire AND heat...not just be resistant to burning itself. Oh, and your wood floor would need to be insulated from fire from the underside as well...I'm guessing at least two layers of 5/8" drywall.
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Last edited by cboy; 02-28-2009 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:16 AM
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This raises yet another red flag, the floor. Uniform Building Code requires not only that the floor of a garage be fire resistant, it must be made of material impervious to fluids and chemicals. In most cases, the only viable alternative turns out to be concrete...either a poured concrete floor or concrete planks. I don't believe sheet metal will qualify due to possible corrosion and reaction to certain chemicals but it might. As with the other questions raised by this project, it is best answered by an engineer.

And the metal floor may also not pass code for fire Resistance. Metal is a great conductor of heat...so it will pass the heat of a fire right through to the planks below. Basically, the floor material must be resistant to fire AND heat...not just be resistant to burning itself. Oh, and your wood floor would need to be insulated from fire from the underside as well...I'm guessing at least two layers of 5/8" drywall.
Its zoned agriculture and its a barn - not a livable house. Agricultural buildings have a lot less oversight. If I were to build a new pole barn in the area they would need a plan on paper and approve that. I don't have a house on the property so the beaurocrats wouldn't let me do it. So I'd have to build an agricultural building. And as far as that goes, I do not think they require any plans or there to be a primary residence on the property. They make a fire resistant paint. I've looked into that and it is $60 a gallon. I will unlikely be doing much with fire on the second floor but might - when I decide that I'll take whatever percausions need to be done. In practice steel with an airspace between the wood should work. Though probably wouldn't be inspected and pass. I'd also take care to make sure oil doesn't drip from the car to get into the wood, as that makes wood a lot more flamable. I'll save the welding for the first floor. There is a gypsum board that is fire rated for a garage. I doubt many people out there use it for their pole barns even though they have roof trusses exposed. Obviously I have a second floor so it would be more trouble if something happened. So you are right that it would probably be a good idea. Though not something I'd do immediately.
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Old 02-28-2009, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lugog
Its zoned agriculture and its a barn....Agricultural buildings have a lot less oversight.
But when you start using it for storing, building and maintaining cars...it becomes a garage and has to meet the appropriate codes. Even in areas where there is lax or minimal code enforcement, you must then contend with insurance coverage. Here's an example.



The barn you see in the background of this picture is from my dad's farm, where I grew up. After I went off to college my dad sold the farm and the new owner (an absentee landlord out of Chicago) rented out the land to be farmed and then rented the house and out buildings to a residential tenant. That tenant decided to use the barn to store and work on cars...including welding.

Well, that barn is no longer standing. It was burned to the foundation in a fire started by a welding spark. But here's the kicker. Since the barn was being used for a non-agricultural use, and no permit had ever been pulled to convert it to "garage/auto storage" or other non-agricultural use, it was non-conforming according to the insurance company, did not meet codes for garage construction...and they would not pay for the loss of the building or any of its contents. The land owner was out a barn and the tenants were out all of their cars and equipment which was destroyed in the fire.

Like you, our area has minimal code enforcement. In fact, when I built out current house the inspector never once stepped foot inside. HOWEVER, this does not mean the home does not have to be built to code. Instead, any builder/owner here is required to sign and certify that the construction meets all current codes. My guess is that your area is the same. And should they inspect later, or should there be catastrophic damage and the insurance company later determines the home did not meet code, the owner is on the hook.

All that's to say, there is no free lunch. Obviously if you know the risks of loss and are willing to take them, then the decision is up to you. I just wouldn't want to see you going into this blindly and then having it bite you in the butt somewhere down the line...like when our old barn was destroyed.
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:04 PM
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Steel i beams for supporting cars

I don't think it matters what we think, cuz U have to get a permit to do this, if you don't and something happens (burns down/caves in) your insurance will not pay. Or worse, make you tare it down....(happened to my brother-in-law) The permit requires a inspection you must pass.....Then the county will triple your taxes, like they did with me
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:56 AM
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I am not a licensed engineer, but do have an engineering degree (chemical). All engineers take basic courses the first two years, then branch out into the specialties, Civil, Electrical, Mechanical, Metallurgical, Aeronautical, Chemical etc. Civil engineers are the construction and building specialist and their Handbooks contain all the standard charts and tables. You can go to the library and browse through these until you turn blue in the face, but in the end you must have the knowledge to pick the right table for your project. You start by knowing the properties of the beams you are dealing with, which you evidently do not know. Also, you are more or less trying to "reverse engineer" the project which makes it much more complex and less exact. The engineer starts with the "specifications" of the project: Scope (size), load requirements of each floor, spans, etc, Site (soil conditions) elevations, climatological conditions etc. He then plans the dimensions as per customer requirements and then plans the materials required to provide the structural integrity and load bearing required. Then he plans the foundation to support all of the above. Most local building codes point to some standard ASCE charts and tables for general purpose buildings such as warehouses, garages, agriculture buildings, bridges, dams etc. Their inspection requirements primarily ensure these standards have been equaled or exceeded.

In your case, you are trying to start with a 100 yr old building that never saw the first engineering table, and you want to renovate it based upon some I beams that you have laying around. One wall is already showing signs of failure from age and past usage. Hmmmmmmm. Good luck.

By the way, I have re floored a couple of bridges that had steel I beams spanning 25 and 30ft respectively. Both had 4 beams just under 4 ft between beams. One bridge had 16X6X1/2 beams and the other had 20X6X1/2 beams.
Both had 4X8 oak flooring. I called the local steel beam distributor to try to get an ideal of the loading I could expect to safely send across these bridges and he would not even venture a WAG because of the multiple variables of used beams, unknown abutment construction, etc, etc. He said hire an engineer that starts at about $1500 minimum. Did not happen so crossing these bridges are done at crosser's risk.

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Old 03-08-2009, 10:40 AM
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A few people here said your in over your head.Me.. I wouldn't do it. Sorry,I know that's not what you want to hear.But I see this being very Dangerous.You can set up that place very nice,And keep the car's below,and safe.Like I said,I know this isn't what you want to hear,Sorry.
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