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-   -   Steering shaft (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/steering-shaft-78957.html)

chiss 01-16-2006 02:36 AM

Steering shaft
 
Are there any info out there on shafts that do not have a line of sight to steering box, an are they fairly safe to run, any help here would be appreciated.

Moon 01-16-2006 05:19 AM

Hi. I have a 2 universal joint setup in my 38 Ford PU. It's never given me any problems but it's installed according to accepted guidelines. For the best info go to the Ididit, Borgensen, and Flaming River websites. They have alot of tech info there.

Moon

Ed ke6bnl 01-16-2006 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moon
Hi. I have a 2 universal joint setup in my 38 Ford PU. It's never given me any problems but it's installed according to accepted guidelines. For the best info go to the Ididit, Borgensen, and Flaming River websites. They have alot of tech info there.

Moon

I would think the offset would be even safes in an accident since it would have less tendency to drive the shaft into your chest. Mine has one flaming river u joint I feel good about the install. Ed ke6bnl the straight on one have in many occasions a slip joint for compression in an accident.

S10xGN 01-16-2006 12:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here's a shot of the double joint setup I built for my S-10. Any time you use more than one U-joint, you need a stablizer bearing for the intermediate shaft. Check here for parts and reading...

Russ

Moon 01-16-2006 01:18 PM

Hi. Those websites I mentioned in my previous post seem to have taken most of their tech info off the site. Liability issues maybe? You do not need a support bearing if you have 1 OR 2 single u-joints. If you have 3 or more u-joints you need 1 or more support bearings. S10xGN, think about it... the driveshaft in your car has 2 u-joints and it doesn't have a support bearing. My 38 Ford PU with a power MII rack has 2 u-joints and no support bearing.

I believe the max angle on a steering u-joint is 30 degrees. But you need to check to make sure. If you get a piece of 3/4" dowel you can use it to simulate the steering shaft and should be able to see if you need 1 or 2 shaft pcs.

Hope this helps
Moon

S10xGN 01-16-2006 01:30 PM

Well that may be what the experts say, but I can tell you for a fact that my intermediate shaft flopped all over the place without one. It's a spooky feeling when you give the steering wheel a half turn before the front wheels start to move. Luckily for me, all this was hashed out before driving it!

Russ

Moon 01-16-2006 01:48 PM

Hi. S10xGN, When you say intermediate shaft, Do you mean you have more than 1 pc of shaft between the steering box and the column? If you do than it would seem like you would have 3 u-joints. On my 38 I have a u-joint on the input shaft of the rack. I have another u-joint on the end of the steering column. Between these 2 u-joints I have 1 pc of double d shaft. That's all. The 2 u-joints are both single u-joints not double u-joints. The reason I'm trying to clarify this is in case I'm missing something, I don't want to be telling people the wrong thing, especialy about th steering.

Moon

cucumber1949 01-16-2006 07:13 PM

If you have one single U-joint on the end of the column, one single U-joint on the steering box shaft, and one piece of shaft between the two, you do not need a support bearing. A support bearing is needed for each additional piece of shaft and the corresponding u-joint used beyond the first piece of shaft. Another way of saying this is that the total number of support bearings needed is the total number of single U-Joints minus two, or the total number of intermediate shafts minus 1. Theoretically, you could have an unlimited number of intermediate shafts between the steering box and the column if you follow the formula.

Support bearings are also recommended for double U-joints and when using a vibration dampener.

Flaming River offers the following which eplains the need for a support bearing in a three u-joint system.

http://www.flamingriver.com/p_view_i..._Tech_Tips.gif

Flaming River recommends shaft angles of 15 degrees but says 30 degrees is acceptable. Borgeson Series 16 U-joints will accomodate angles up to 35 degrees.

yesgo 01-17-2006 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S10xGN
Well that may be what the experts say, but I can tell you for a fact that my intermediate shaft flopped all over the place without one. It's a spooky feeling when you give the steering wheel a half turn before the front wheels start to move. Luckily for me, all this was hashed out before driving it!

Russ

From the pic it looks like that might be because you have much too sharp of an angle. The longevity of your joints may be minimal. The smoothness may not last long because of such a steep angle. A properly set up joint should last near forever, or at least 100,000 miles IMO. Your angle, IMO is excessive, at least from the pics.

For chiss, set it up like a drive shaft if you can, as alluded to above. There is plenty of info out there about pinion angles, and how they relate to transmissions. If they are above a certain angle, the manufacturer will use a double u-joint or CV joint as well as a support bearing AND an additional shaft, for smoothness and longevity. If there is not an exact product out there to suit you needs, I'm sure one can be fabricated... and one of those sites mentioned above may help with custom work for you. A support bearing should not be needed unless more than one shaft is used.

Just dont do that chain operated steering monstrosity I saw on T.V. It was likely at Burning Man, which is a good place for it, not on the road :D

chiss 01-17-2006 05:13 AM

Thanks for all the info, I've seen them in the past offset, but I haven't talked to anybody about them, I have fabricated a lot of parts in the past an this is the first time I've had this situation to come up. Just wanted to get some endsite on the subject before starting, once again thanks for the good reads on the subject.

S10xGN 01-17-2006 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moon
Hi. S10xGN, When you say intermediate shaft, Do you mean you have more than 1 pc of shaft between the steering box and the column? If you do than it would seem like you would have 3 u-joints. On my 38 I have a u-joint on the input shaft of the rack. I have another u-joint on the end of the steering column. Between these 2 u-joints I have 1 pc of double d shaft. That's all. The 2 u-joints are both single u-joints not double u-joints. The reason I'm trying to clarify this is in case I'm missing something, I don't want to be telling people the wrong thing, especialy about th steering.

Moon

My setup is identical to (the description of) yours. Without the support bearing, when I turned the steering wheel the front wheels would not move until after the top u-joint would deflect the intermediate shaft enough to bang into the header (3/4" away). This deflection absorbed about a half a turn on the wheel, not to mention putting the joints in a bind. Why? I have no idea, other than maybe my steering column's lower bearing may be trashed or missing.

IIRC, all this was hashed out with a Borgeson rep over the phone and this is what we came up with (this was 5 yrs ago and I've slept since then). It has performed flawlessly since the support bearing was installed. Just goes to show you, every case is different. Might not be the way you'd do it, but it works for me!

Russ

enjenjo 01-17-2006 04:07 PM

Russ, I think the problem was caused by the distance from the lower bearing on the column, to the upper U joint. But as you said, the shaft support fixed it, so it's all good. :)

Moon 01-17-2006 05:03 PM

Russ, I'll bet what you said about the lower column bearing was the problem. I just put a rebuilt 3 turn lock to lock ps box in my 66 Chevy. When I seperated the rag joint, the end of the column shaft must have had 1/2 to 3/4 inches of side play. Lower column bearing totaly shot. The only reason I never knew it was the rag joint holding everything in alignment. If there were 2 universals and a shaft on that column it would have been flopping around like a fish out of water. Which brings up an interesting point. The lower column bearing has alot more stress on it when used in a 2 u-joint setup. Does anyone know if this bearing can suffer a total immediate breakdown? I'd hate to think what would happen if that column bearing ( on the GM column in my 38 ) went bad while I was driving. I gonna have to think about adding a support bearing to my 38 just to take the stress off that lower column bearing. It's really amazing where these disscussions can lead to sometimes.

Moon


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