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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
grocery, What I said is common welding knowledge you on the other hand kept referring to mild steel quite apparently thinking car frames and metal structures are not made from structural steels and apparently are completely unaware that pre-heating steel is common practice, R @ D engineer You have proven to me what you know already and I have said too much so go ahead give it your best shot I will have no more to say here but I would truly like to see you spout this nonsense on a welding forum.

I agree with the preheat theory as it's been proven many times. Stress relieving after welding also adds strength. Both of these basic proceedures were taught in the welding classes I took years ago. I've done the preheat many times on mild steel, cast steel and cast iron. A friend of mine builds chrome moly roll cages and tube frames for off road trucks and before he started using a tig all his work was done with mig welding followed by stress relieving with an oxy acetelyne torch-never any failures with his work. I've done a lot of snow plow repair over the years and if the preheat and stress relief wasn't done right on some of these failure prone areas the repair wouldn't last long. There's a lot more to welding than laying down a pretty bead especially when the piece is subjected to a lot of stress. Common sense IMO.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 10:37 PM
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Well glad to hear you took SOME advice and just jumped in. All the schooling in the world won't do what experience can. Everyone has their preferences and you will develop yours. I use the oxy-acetylene on all my sheet metal because I like to hammer weld (which I have never heard a tig or mig weldor do) The problem is with excessive heat and distortion. The benafit is that when its done right you can't tell is wasn't part of the car. I think for floor pans and out of sight work your arc welding will be fine. On exposed body panels..well.. I don't want to use negative words like can't or won't although those words have inspired me to do some welding that people said couldn't be done.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 10:39 PM
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Good, I am glad you have decided to stop confusing people by entering your vast knowledge and experience in welding.

Although I doubt anyone is still paying attention to this, as I can't believe I am even still posting about it.

But I understand you are a welder, which I have respect for, and I understand your need to feel like you know something.

As far as I am concerned mild steel is all medium and low carbon steel yard products, which include angles, channels, beams and so on. Why do I and many others call it mild steel? It is not tool steel, high speed steel, high carbon steel, chrome moly or stainless steel, which all also have many grades. Now when someone says what is that do? I need to say 17-4 or 303, not just stainless, but if someone asks what kind of stainless can I heat treat to a Rockwell of about 40...... Sure i'll point them in the right direction.
Just because I haven't spent 37 years reading the alloy content on an electrode can doesn't mean jack. It means I know how to answer the question at hand.

Now when I design a new product, after I have determined the working loads involved, I will pick, not my welder, what steel "grade is required", and what we will use to stick it together. On most components (have you I work in an automotive related industry) I can use grades as low as 1018, if it is a part that is being machined (lathe) I like to use 12L14 for proto types(not threads), the "L" helps you remember it has a higher lead content and sometimes I will use some A36 because even though its not really A36 that is what they call it( so much recycled metal real A36 is well not real). Now as far as beams go I don't use them anymore, because well I did that in my 20's and it is boring.
But as far as trying to claim dramatic differences between any of them is just silly. Is there a difference? Sure, but does anyone working on a hot rod need to know the difference? Absolutely not.

And as far as pre heating mild steel to weld it (onto a car) well I think you left your headlamp down in one of those shafts.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 10:46 PM
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No, I agree certain things have their place but you have to read where this post started. It sure wasn't plow blades, ever welded a plow blade with a 110 amp, 115 volt?mig welder with .023 wire come on.

And I have zero disputes with what willowbilly said, no i agree but oxy/acc isn't the easyest way for a new guy who is trying to stick weld a patch pannel. And a good torch rig isn't that much cheaper than a used mig welder.
If all the old guys are going to get together to to make their point, I have some ringers too.

And that was my other point about the properties of crome moly, not insanely different than steel just have to take process into consideration...
Be careful with the experiance thing and assumptions.. if you have any you know where they both lead.

Last edited by gROCERYgEtteR; 08-29-2005 at 10:58 PM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gROCERYgEtteR

And as far as pre heating mild steel to weld it (onto a car) well I think you left your headlamp down in one of those shafts.


I guess that would be determined by what the part is intended for and how strong the joint needs to be without sacrificing any exhisting strength.

I've seen factory welds break as well as non factory welds break on automotive frames, stop over, I'll show you a few examples I've done factory recall repairs where factory sheetmetal welds have also failed, door intrusion beams as one example.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willowbilly3
[. . . snip . . .]
I use the oxy-acetylene on all my sheet metal because I like to hammer weld (which I have never heard a tig or mig weldor do)
That's where you hammer the weld down flush, right? I think that's what Furgusen (?) was demonstrating in one of the sticky posts about recreating a fender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willowbilly3
The problem is with excessive heat and distortion. The benafit is that when its done right you can't tell is wasn't part of the car.
[. . . snipped . . .]
That's where I still fail. I get in a hurry and make the panel look like it's been through an explosion. The smaller the repair, the less damage I do to the surrounding panel. On a big split or hole the thing will make you seasick looking at it after I'm done.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 11:03 PM
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[QUOTE=gROCERYgEtteR] It sure wasn't plow blades, ever welded a plow blade with a 110 amp, 115 volt?mig welder with .023 wire come on.
QUOTE]

Definately an assumption, I would never suggest doing plow repair with a 110 welder, and I wasn't talking blade repair. The undercarriage is what takes the beating, all 3/8 and 1/2" mild steel.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 11:04 PM
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Thanks but I have seen both as well that was the point.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 11:13 PM
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I haven't read this all, kind of trying to avoid some of the chest pounding and just give you info that will help. Yes hammer welding is welding short lengths then hammering to keep the metal shrunk and the weld a uniform thickness as the parent metal. I also keep a bucket of water and a rag to cool the whole panel off. Last week I spent a couple hours straightening out a bad patch job on a model A front fender.I must have shrank on it for an hour and really wished I had more tools made for shrinking. I am not really a body man, just an old self taught welder that does what it takes. I know when to heat and when not to, what works and what don't on most stuff.
I am glad you took the advice to buy the 7014.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2005, 11:48 PM
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What are you using for filler on your hammer welds?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2005, 03:00 AM
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If you must use a stick welder the E7014 in the smallest size you can get would be the best. The E7014 rod is made to work with AC current and that will reduce blow through and slag entrapment better than any other rod except the E7018 which is compatible to the E7014. The E7014 will give you medium deposition and medium penetration rates at a higher speed than other electrodes which is better for sheet-metal welding. The E7018 has a low hydrogen iron powder covering as the E7014 has a Rutile iron powder covering in simple terms the E7018 has to be kept dry like in an oven the E7014 doesn't. The E7014 can be used in all positions and with light gage when you weld vertical you weld from top to bottom in a swift pass. In your case you should only weld very brief like tach welding to avoid warping the metal to much. And you should only weld lap or fillet joints, Don't try to weld butt joints that thin and avoid edges and corners. Practice practice practice and good luck you'll need it.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2005, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gROCERYgEtteR
What are you using for filler on your hammer welds?
I get rolls of tie wire that they use for tieing rebar. We used to use "baling wire" which some hay balers used to use. I am not sure what guage it is called. I know some guys use coat hangers but I never liked them, too fat and they have that coating. I have also used the store bought stuff which comes in 3 foor sticks just like brazing rod. It can be had in different sizes for mild steel and has a light coating so it doesn't rust.

And FWIW, my take on 7018 is that it isn't suitable for this type of work because it is so "hard nosed" as we used to call it. Basically only suited for use where you burn whole rods at a time. Once you stop it is difficult to restart. It is also referred to as jet rod sometimes and that is because the filler burns back into the flux causeing the filler to "jet" out the end. So when you stop, the flux actually protrudes well past the metal core. Then as you attempt to start again the flux braks away and the bare metal protrudes and sticks as you try to strike an arc. With a little experience you can have some success by using your thumb to crumble the flux tube off the end but it will still stick sometimes. Once you use 7014 you won't want anything else for light work. Now if I am welding something like a broken bucket on a 988 Cat loader I definately want 7018 or maybe up to 10018 depending on the tensile strength requirement.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2005, 10:03 AM
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Grocery, Ok at this point I have to say something. What I have been saying that you are referring to as my "theory" is simple welding knowledge that is one of the first things taught in welding class which you have very obviously never attended. I don't know what you are trying to prove or who you are trying to impress but with every post you are just making it clearer that you know little about welding. What you said about pre-heating and warpage is total nonsense and just plain backward(again not just my opinion but industry practice) and what you had to say about the heat affected area(yes this does pertain to car frames) "just outside the weld" as you put it being made bigger and weaker (this is known as the transitional area BTW), again shows what little you know about the subject since one of the main reasons to pre-heat a part is to lessen the effects of thermal shock and to spread heat distortion over a larger area so the stress will not be concentrated in a small area lessening heat damage not making it worse as you say. Ok maybe you are right and the rest of the world is wrong but you are simply babbling nonsense and trying to back it up with BS. Again you are going against standard welding procedure that has been standard practice world wide for many years and when a person welds something as critical as a frame ultimate strength should be the goal and this is obtained by following proven and accepted guidelines to which you are clearly in the dark about.

Come on how about going to a welding a site where you can explain to the pro welders that what they have been doing all these years is all wrong and let's not bore these guys anymore, they are here to talk cars.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2005, 11:23 PM
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You do not really use bailing wire? Well i guess if it works.. ill give it a shot. What do the weld shop guys say about it? Do they not have a soft enough filler?
Have you ever tried to tig with the same wire????? I would like to try that too.
Thanks
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2005, 12:34 AM
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I have never picked up a tig but I suppose baling wire would work. I've been using it for 30 plus years and it works fine. I have also used stovepipe wire from the hardware store. It is smaller and works nice on the thinner metal with a #1 or #0 tip.
Anyone on here have a Henrob torch? I would trally like to try one of those.
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