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Old 08-26-2005, 04:49 AM
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Stick (smaw) Welding for Patch Panels--Need help from old timers...!

This is my first post, but I think I came to the right source...as I'll explain.

Stick welding seems to be old technology....as countless people recommend gas shielded migs for body panel work. I would love the mig, but I have to work with a simple 110V stick welder from eastwood on my projects. I simply can't afford the mig.

I have practiced for 3-4 months with a basic 6010/6013 rods on thin body panels. Typically I weld with 1/16 rods(6013) at about 15-20amps. I flange the two body panels, yet my welds are ugly, riddled with inclusions, and occasional burn through. I recently tried a pound of 5/64 rods for more deposition. This worked a bit better. But, from what I have read on this board, I am now inclined to try 7014 rods.

For those with actual experience using stick welders for body panels...can you offer up some technical assistance on what rods you use, types of joints (flange/lap joints, plug welds, butt welds), and how to drag/push the rod on vertical surfaces. I am also curious about prepping for painting after welding.

Any tips are appreciated....just don't tell me to buy a mig (though you could tell my wife!)

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Old 08-26-2005, 08:37 AM
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My first advice would be simply to not do it. Stick welding body panels is VERY difficult even for "old time welders" and is rarely used in body work. Forget the 6010 and use the 7014 if you try to do this but I think are going to be disappointed with whatever rod you use since burn through and slag inclusion are going to be a problem. I wish I had a good answer for you but the fact is what you are trying to do is going to be difficult no matter what so if you do try this then the best thing to do would be to get a LOT of scrap sheet metal and practice,practice,practice and practice some more! On vertical welds use the down hand method(some welders may frown on this but trust me it will work) if you try to weld vertical up on something this thin you will see how difficult it is. Use spot welds where ever possible and grind out any slag inclusions and do not try to "burn" them out with another bead. The problems you will run into are burn through, excess spatter, heat distortion, slag contamination, etc,etc. Are you absolutely sure you cannot afford a mig? As much as I detest gasless flux core wire even it beats stick by a wide margin and the cheapo migs from Harbor Freight can be had for about $200 in the 220 volt version. I know some will tell you not to bother with an off brand outfit but if it is all you can afford at the time it can be a good buy since it will pay for it self in short order and will beat stick welding for body work any way you look at it. OK you told me NOT to tell you to buy a mig but it is the best advice I have for you since it could very well make the difference between success and disaster.
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:04 AM
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Glue?

Hi,
I dunno if these patch panels HAVE to be welded or not, so I'll throw you some 2nd-hand advice...

I have been told that patch panels that are vital to structural integrity, i.e. rocker panels should be welded. Rust repair panels that lay on over top can be attached using a structural adhesive like Norton Speedgrip.

I don't have any first-hand experience yet, as my project still has a way to go before I get to that stage.

Don
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:41 AM
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66, I have never used adhesive myself but from what I have read here it looks like it may very well be a viable alternative, maybe some of the pros will have some advice? Stick welding body panels even by a highly experienced welder would be tricky at best and to have a beginning welder attempt it is a recipe for major problems, not to say it can't be done BUT......
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Old 08-26-2005, 11:36 AM
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I have been welding for over 40 years & have mig,tig,stick & ox/act. You simply can not stick weld body panels. The cheapest way would traditionally be ox/acy. I actually prefer to weld panels in with ox/act if I can get a dolly behind the panel to hammer weld because you get better penetration.

Don
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Old 08-26-2005, 11:53 AM
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Welding tips

I agree with Don. 6010 is soft and is great for industriall sheat metal 10 ga+. Anything less than that will be a burn through, pannel warping nightmare. You could try and Tack it every few inches but i'd bet you would stick more rods than you would get solid tacks, Go rent a mig. I love oxy/acc but it can be tought to figure out if you dont have the experiance, it can cause you some warpage, and the point is to use as little filler as possible I am assumong this of course. You can even buy little 220v 150 amp migs that can use a small bottle,Sheild gas,(used) if you shop around this could be a $500 dollar rig and you will be so happy, You'll be welding your kids to their bikes.
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Old 08-27-2005, 12:17 AM
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Try 3M's 8515 panel bonding adhesive and or try Lord Fusor adhesives. It works very well. Your local paint jobber will have it, and yes, it has been used over 20 years now.
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Old 08-27-2005, 06:44 PM
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To Mrs 66

Any tips are appreciated....just don't tell me to buy a mig (though you could tell my wife!)[/QUOTE]


O.K. 66 here goes,, to MRS 66, Would you please let MR 66 buy a mig welder so he can get these panels welded up. I'm very sure he would be very happy and reward you accordly, he is wasting lots of money buying all these different welding rods just expermenting , and trying to make do,, I realize that most women don't understand how important it is to have all the needed tools to work on these miserable cars ,but just think how nice it will be when he gets it completed, he will probably even spend more time with you, insted of being in the garage trying to figure out a way to weld with this OLD TIME WELDER,,,, I bet he would even be willing to do ALL the house cleaning and laundry, and things that you normally do, THANK YOU MRS. 66
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Old 08-27-2005, 07:04 PM
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i have used rivets on panels before,then tap them in some and bondoed, looked good when finished
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Old 08-27-2005, 08:14 PM
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Do you have an oxy-acetylene setup? I'd use that before I'd stick weld sheetmetal, and I'd probably even rather bond with epoxy before I'd stick weld sheet metal. Maybe as a last resort you could get the patches all screwed or riveted in place, then find a body shop that will MIG weld them in for you.
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Old 08-28-2005, 12:41 AM
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Dear mrs. 66

Dear Mrs 66,

This is Mrs GroceryGetter and you should just let him buy the damn welder. If you don't he is just going to follow you around like a lost puppy begging and whining to you about all this stuff he could be building right now, and how much better life would be and blaa, blaa, blaa. And if you don't give in right away he will start bugging you about sex. He'll say crap like well if you wont let me build my car we should go in the bed room and build our family, and then he will quit trying that and when you washing dishes hell start humpin your leg, as if that works, which it usually does, so he just winds up getting the damn thing anyway , oh and the one he finally winds up buying after all his ridiculous efforts, will be more expensive than the damn one he said he needed.

In the long run it really works out well because now my husband spends most of his time working on what is now "my" car, and now instead of headaches I get flash burn!!!!! Oh and when he tries to show you how cool it is just go along with and have him build you some yard art, if he is smart your green beans will grow better then you can watch him eat them.

Best of luck,
Mrs Grocery getter
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Old 08-28-2005, 09:53 PM
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any tips will be appreciated

So here's my 2 cents worth. Some times we have to go with what we have even though its not the best, or what others tell us.
First of all, tack in place in as many places as practical, making sure that the fit is very tight [clamp] at each tack. To finish weld, do not weld more than 1 inch at a time. Take it slow and move around a lot. Burn through is usually caused by trying to lay down to long a bead. If posible,try to back up the weld with a heavy piece of copper. I've made several backers from old fashion soldering irons. Realize also that the hardest part of stick welding for a new-be is starting the arc. I would try to borrow one ot the automatic helmets from someone. I've used 6010, 6013, and 7014 for this type of welding, and prefer 6010. 7014 would be a better choise, but the coating sheilds the arc some what and its hard to be precise on small stuff. Give it a shot. the worse that can happen is you may have to do it over. Good luck
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Old 08-28-2005, 10:08 PM
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I am sorry, but stick welding is just wrong for sheetmetal.

I understand being on a budget and a MIG not being in the cards.

A cheap oxy/acet torch will do a great job and in the end save you money. By time you buy all these various rods, grinding wheels and grief you will end up with as much money as in the torch. A MIG is the best solution but a torch will make excellent welds and is something you can use for many task.

Not to mention you will end up with a panel thats riddled with pinholes and stuctural issues. You can only burn through so many times and fill before your sheetmetal is useless.

Rich
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Old 08-28-2005, 10:39 PM
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Dear Mrs. GroceryGetter

Quote:
Originally Posted by gROCERYgEtteR
Dear Mrs 66,

This is Mrs GroceryGetter and you should just let him buy the damn welder. If you don't he is just going to follow you around like a lost puppy begging and whining to you about all this stuff he could be building right now, and how much better life would be and blaa, blaa, blaa. And if you don't give in right away he will start bugging you about sex. He'll say crap like well if you wont let me build my car we should go in the bed room and build our family, and then he will quit trying that and when you washing dishes hell start humpin your leg, as if that works, which it usually does, so he just winds up getting the damn thing anyway , oh and the one he finally winds up buying after all his ridiculous efforts, will be more expensive than the damn one he said he needed.

In the long run it really works out well because now my husband spends most of his time working on what is now "my" car, and now instead of headaches I get flash burn!!!!! Oh and when he tries to show you how cool it is just go along with and have him build you some yard art, if he is smart your green beans will grow better then you can watch him eat them.

Best of luck,
Mrs Grocery getter
Dear Mrs. GroceryGetter,

First of all, it's Mrs. vtCruiser60 that you should be giving this advise to ... but thanks for the insight!

So humping her leg SHOULD work, then?

And let me see if I understand the rest as well...
I'll get SEX and truck parts?

I'll presume that the amount that I get to spend will be totally dependant on the level of "performance", correct?

Thanks again for a great story, and I'll be sure to try that tonight.

Oh honey....
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Old 08-29-2005, 09:04 AM
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RR, You said two things that sum this up perfectly, stick welding is just wrong for sheetmetal and one can only burn through so many times before junking the part. Of all the methods used to weld body panels I would guess stick welding to be the worst choice and by far the hardest but it can be done and I have done it on some parts it is just that I would STRONGLY recommend avoiding stick unless you are already sure of your welding skills. Gmwillys has obviously done this also and offered some really good advice about controlling burn-through(I have used copper blocks with heat sink compound) and to add to this I might suggest using a very light welding lead, which I will assume is already the case on that tiny welder, and a GOOD lightweight electrode holder that will hold the rod FIRMLY. But we could offer advice all day on how to do it and it will not change the fact that this is just about the worst way to do this. and should be attempted only by someone who is already confident of his ability and then it is still a bad choice.

Gmwillys, 6010 My hat is off to you on that one since, to me anyway, 7014 seems a lot easier on really thin parts but I can see where the slag control might be easier with 6010 once you master the burn through problem.
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