Still Stumped - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 10:28 AM
10mikeymike's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northville, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 51
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Still Stumped

I'm trying to track down the source of a problem that has me stumped. My car has a Chevy ZZ4 crate engine (350 H.O.) with an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor. When cold, the car starts and runs fine initially. About 15 to 20 minutes after a cold start, it bucks and stutters when I try to accelerate - almost like it's gas starved. This goes on for 5 -10 minutes and then stops. After it's been run for a while it starts and runs without incident. Edelbrock tech. suport had me move the linkage on the accelerator pump and I also switched out the metering rods and step-up springs for a richer crusing mixture. They also had me adjust the choke and it appears to be working properly. While the changes improved performance, they didn't eliminate the cold start problem.

The car had a fuel pressure regulator that I thought might have had a check valve that was sticking when cold. I've eliminated it, but still have the problem. It also has an inline fuel filter and that's the next thing I'm going to replace.

Im also wondering if it's a timing issue but if so, wouldn't it be present all the time? Which vacum port is the vacum advance on the distributor supposed to be connected to? It's currently connected to the left (drivers side) port. I believe that's the full time port. Is this the right port or should it be conntected to the timed port?

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 02:03 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 6,915
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 467 Times in 402 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10mikeymike
I'm trying to track down the source of a problem that has me stumped. My car has a Chevy ZZ4 crate engine (350 H.O.) with an Edelbrock 1406 carburetor. When cold, the car starts and runs fine initially. About 15 to 20 minutes after a cold start, it bucks and stutters when I try to accelerate - almost like it's gas starved. This goes on for 5 -10 minutes and then stops. After it's been run for a while it starts and runs without incident. Edelbrock tech. suport had me move the linkage on the accelerator pump and I also switched out the metering rods and step-up springs for a richer crusing mixture. They also had me adjust the choke and it appears to be working properly. While the changes improved performance, they didn't eliminate the cold start problem.

The car had a fuel pressure regulator that I thought might have had a check valve that was sticking when cold. I've eliminated it, but still have the problem. It also has an inline fuel filter and that's the next thing I'm going to replace.

Im also wondering if it's a timing issue but if so, wouldn't it be present all the time? Which vacum port is the vacum advance on the distributor supposed to be connected to? It's currently connected to the left (drivers side) port. I believe that's the full time port. Is this the right port or should it be conntected to the timed port?
Sounds like it's icing in the intake, does it use exhaust heat under the intake manifold?

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 02:40 PM
345 desoto's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Skaneateles, NY Summer/Port St.Lucie, FL Winter
Age: 71
Posts: 416
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
...or the choke isn't opening up fast enough...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 04:34 PM
DoubleVision's Avatar
Not Considered a Senior Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Heart Of Dixie
Age: 40
Posts: 10,658
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 15
Thanked 60 Times in 57 Posts
What type of fuel pump are you using?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 08:54 PM
10mikeymike's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northville, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 51
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bogie, I'm confused by your reference to icing in the intake. What do you mean? The choke is electric. It doesn't use exhaust heat. This is the second carburetor I've had on the engine and the problem hasn't gone away. At one point I had the choke set to remain open all the time - that didn't make any difference. The engine has a mechanical fuel pump. Don't mechanical fuel pumps use diaphragms? If that were failing wouldn't it be all the time instead of just 15 minutes after a cold start? I'm at a loss. Everyone who's looked at it just seems to be guessing. Now I'm wondering if it's an ignition issue, but what would cause a problem that only occurs 15-20 minutes after a cold start? Could it be a mechanical advance issue that occurs until everything is warm? If so, why wouldn't it happen when everything is real cold instead of when the engine is almost to operating temperature? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just thinking out loud.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 09:06 PM
Double_v23's Avatar
Horsepower Enthusiast
 

Last journal entry: Finished BMOD001FH
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Mooresville, NC
Posts: 1,495
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
It is a timing issue. What is your initial timing? what rpm does the timing stop advancing? What is the total timing? Are you running vacuum advance. I had a guy come to me telling me that he checked the timing and his problem still persisted. He was 120 degrees advanced....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2008, 09:40 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 6,915
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 467 Times in 402 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10mikeymike
Bogie, I'm confused by your reference to icing in the intake. What do you mean? The choke is electric. It doesn't use exhaust heat. This is the second carburetor I've had on the engine and the problem hasn't gone away. At one point I had the choke set to remain open all the time - that didn't make any difference. The engine has a mechanical fuel pump. Don't mechanical fuel pumps use diaphragms? If that were failing wouldn't it be all the time instead of just 15 minutes after a cold start? I'm at a loss. Everyone who's looked at it just seems to be guessing. Now I'm wondering if it's an ignition issue, but what would cause a problem that only occurs 15-20 minutes after a cold start? Could it be a mechanical advance issue that occurs until everything is warm? If so, why wouldn't it happen when everything is real cold instead of when the engine is almost to operating temperature? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just thinking out loud.
The action of evaporating fuel and the movement of air thru a venturi lowers the temperature. It can get cold enough that the moisture in the air freezes in the lower part of the venturi, the throttle blades, or inside the manifold's plenum if the intake doesn't have exhaust heat on it, as hot rodders are want to do. If icing happens, it just chokes off the engine which will studder and feel like its going lean, it may even backfire thru the intake.

I, like everbody, else am taking a guess asto how I interpret what you say about the symptoms.

I wouldn't expect this kind of action from a sticking mechanical advance. If that were stuck in the "retarded" position you would feel a loss of power as the road speed and rpms came up because the vacuum advance would go away with nothing to replace it. If you made a speed run high enough to kick out the centrifugal which then became stuck in that position, the car would not slow down quickly because in spite of a closed throttle the engine would continue to hold its revs up high. If this is a conventional point type ignition, it could be a failing condenser/capacitor that's gotten temperature sensitive. Or if HEI it could be a failing module. Coils also can become temperature sensitive.

Mechanical fuel pumps can become temperature sensitive as well.

I guess digging for deeper understanding, I'd ask if the engine wants to or does backfire thru the intake. This is a sign of a lean mixture. If the engine feels like it's choking on fuel then obviously its rich. Lean failures feel sharper, the engine just falls down hard, where over rich it seems to blubber along.

Electric chokes are often run off the ignition, this can pull too much power away from the ignition system resulting in a weak spark. An engine needs a stronger spark when hot because all the resistances are getting bigger and the pressures in the cylinder are increasing. Air has a resistive value, which is why airliners and spacecraft don't use PVC insulation on wires as it can't keep electrons inside on the wire even in low voltage systems at high altitude. Same thing happens across the spark plug but in reverse, as the in cylinder temp and pressure goes up it takes more force to get those electrons to jump from one electrode to the other.

Keep in mind that an electric choke is not responding to engine temperature, though I'd certainly think that 15-20 minutes in the motor is warm enough if doesn't need choke. Or if the choke is sharing power with the ignition it may not be opening fully or closing again after it does. An electric choke should really be wired off the B+ power bus that is switched on for all of the car's systems from the key. There is a tendency, and even this form has recommended, using the hot side of the ignition. While convenient, it's not a good solution since it forces load sharing on a critical and sensitive circuit. If this is a points ignition on top of that, except for when the starter is cranking, it's a 9 volt, not a 12 volt circuit.

The big diagnostic key is how its dying, give me some detail about that, the vehicle and engine.

Don't forget grounds, the engine and transmission sit on rubber mounts, the rear axle probably also does. So the entire drive line is pretty well insulated and isolated electrically. There needs to be ground connections at least as big as the starter cable between the engine, chassis, and the battery's ground terminal. A lack of grounding can result in all sorts of weird symptoms.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 09:50 AM
10mikeymike's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northville, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 51
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bogie,

Thanks for the detail you've provided. Here's some background for you.

I've had the car for about 3 months. The problem has existed for as long as I've had it. It appears the engine was already warmed up when I test drove the car. After I got and realized what was happening, I called the former owner and he told me he thought he solved the problem by replacing the ignition module. I then called the guy who built the car and he told me he never had this problem. The engine is a GM Performance crate engine (ZZ4 H.O. 330 HP) According to the spec's., it originally came equipped with a Holley carburetor. I asked the builder about this and he indicated he removed the Holley because he had trouble with it and he liked Edelbrock's. He reiterated that he never had the cold start issues during the time he had the car.

When I first got the car, the problem would occur about 5 minutes after a cold start. After making the changes to the carburetor as instructed by Edelbrock, the problem now occurs about 10 - 15 minutes after a cold start. When the choke was set to be closed when cold, it would back-fire through the intake when the problem occurred. If I opened it all the way the back-fire would go away. I've since purchased a new Edelbrock carburetor like the one that was on the car and made the same changes, but the problem is still there. The hot lead on the choke appears to be running off a switched line. It looks like it's running from an accessory slot on the fuse panel. The ground is attached to one of the screws that hold the cap on the choke.

If the problem happens while sitting at a light, the engine will just die. When I start the car back up it has to turn over a couple of time before it will fire. Almost like the carburetor needs gas. If it happens while driving, it will buck and stutter. When that happens, I put the transmission in neutral and just give it gas. It acts like it's fuel starved and then will rev up. I then put it back in Drive until or if it happens again. It's most likely to happen under light to moderate throttle inputs. The problem generally doesn't last for more than a few minutes and afterwards the car runs fine. I can then start and stop the engine all day and it fires immediately and runs fine.

The car has a 16 gallon stainless steel gas tank and it is vented and appears to be working properly. It has a flapper type gas inlet with no gas cap. I've opened it in the morning and there doesn't appear to be any air that is trapped in the tank or escaping.

I just purchased a new Edelbrock inline fuel filter and banjo fitting for the carb. So far, I haven't bothered to make sure the existing filter is on correctly or not. In going through the receipts and other information I got with the car, I notice the engine was shipped without a fuel pump. I have a receipt for an off-brand fuel pump and it appears to have been made in India. Lately, I've just been replacing parts. At this point all that's left to replace is the fuel pump, distributor, wires and plugs which appear to reflect the correct air/fuel mixture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 12:02 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, Wa
Posts: 6,915
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 467 Times in 402 Posts
How far is the tank from the engine and in terms of height does it sit higher, equal, or lower?

The problem sounds like the mixture goes lean. Given the descriptions

((the problem would occur about 5 minutes after a cold start. After making the changes to the carburetor as instructed by Edelbrock, the problem now occurs about 10 - 15 minutes after a cold start. When the choke was set to be closed when cold, it would back-fire through the intake when the problem occurred. If I opened it all the way the back-fire would go away. ---- If the problem happens while sitting at a light, the engine will just die. When I start the car back up it has to turn over a couple of time before it will fire. Almost like the carburetor needs gas. If it happens while driving, it will buck and stutter. When that happens, I put the transmission in neutral and just give it gas. ))

and these descriptions ((The car has a 16 gallon stainless steel gas tank and it is vented and appears to be working properly. It has a flapper type gas inlet with no gas cap. ---- receipt for an off-brand fuel pump and it appears to have been made in India))

1) if it back fires it's definitely a lean mixture, though you couldn't rule out the ignition going wacky. In the 5 minute zone this could indicate an issue with the transition from a cold to warm engine. This can be fuel puddling on the bottom of the intake which will make the mixture in the cylinders lean. Question about type of intake fits here? Or the choke comes off too early which will tend to lead back to my first observation. The closed choke exposes the main metering circuit to manifold vacuum, this forces it to dispense fuel when it ordinarly wouldn't to richen the mixture for a cold enigne.

2) The changed carburetor leads to the same problem 10 minutes later. This has me stumped at several levels. At this point one would think the engine was warm enough that fuel puddling on the floor of the plenum was no longer a problem. Same with an ignition issue that was temperature related. I get to wonder if more than one thing is going on with the fuel system where one problem overlays the other and changing the carb exposed them in time, perhaps fixing one but not the other.

3) The fuel system, this is also symptomatic of fuel quality and or issues in the tank, lines, filter, pump. I'd look for water in the tank or debris that gets picked up with the incoming fuel. Though this is usually a problem related to fuel quantity in the tank more so than operating time. The fuel pump itself, mechanical pumps and electric diaphragm pumps do develop odd failure modes, they don't aways just quit pumping. Sometimes they'll pump fine at idle but won't keep up as demand increases, sometimes they are fine at idle and top end but not cruise. Sometimes its temperature related. If the pump is located a distance from the tank, and especially if the tank is lower than the pump vapor lock gets to be an issue. This while usually thought of as a temperature problem, is really related to the pump drawing a suction on the fuel line. Fuels have a vapor pressure curve related to pressure and temperature. When the pressure is reduced by the suction action of the pump the temperature at which fuel can flash to vapor is reduced. I'd actually put fuel delivery problems high on my candidate list. These kind of problems also happen when the pump is pulling against a partially plugged or collapsed line, insufficient venting of the tank, or a plugged filter on the suction side. On the pressure side a plugged filter becomes more resistant to flow as pressure goes up. This would tend to relieve itself when force from the pump is removed i.e. the engine stalls. Probably monitoring pressure at the carb inlet would provide some insight. My last though is you may have stumbled into a generic failure mode of the Edlebrock carb, though I'd think we'd be hearing of other people with similar complaints. Though I'm suspicious of the engine builder removing the supplied Holley as cause to consider this problem was there with that carb as well in spite of his claims to the contrary. We all have our carburetor preferences but basically if you can't get a Holley to work right, you don't stand a chance against a Carter or Q-Jet. You also can't eliminate the effects of charge cooling in the manifold, you didn't say what manifold that was and whether it had an exhaust heated crossover. For some engines, heating the intake charge is necessary to keep them running right. The refrigeration action of evaporating fuel and expanding air thru a venturi causes the fuel to condense as well as freezing moisture present in the air. Really two separate events are going on. Icing chokes the engine for air, I described the symptoms earlier and a time related scenero is one that stands out here. then after the enigne quits the manigold warms up and the ice melts, you look at it and nothing appears out of the ordinary. Super cooling condenses the fuel out of the mixture as well, in fact the purpose of a choke is simply to make a temporarily over rich mixture that just overcomes the fuel condensation problem with brute force by theowing so much fuel at it something's bound to get into the cylinders that burns. But this can also get into fuel puddling problems that look odd as the engine appears to be running lean but the plugs and the exhaust look and smell of rich. I always hated "Stupid Pet Tricks" and this is one of them.

So I don't think I can solve this for you at this range, but hopefully there's some thoughts in here you can use.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 01:44 PM
10mikeymike's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northville, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 51
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks again for the insight. I just got home so I'm going to install the new filter. The intake manifold is the stock GM item with dual openings. Something I forgot to mention is that there is a 1/2" laminated riser between the manifold and the carburetor. The gas tank sits between the rear frame rails and appears to be level with the top portion of the oil pan. All of the fuel lines are 3/8" braided stainless steel covered Neoprene with Aeroquip AN6 fittings. I don't know the actual distance from the tank to the fuel pump, but the car is a Downs bodied 37 Ford 3 Window Coupe - it's not very long. I'll let you know if the filter change makes any difference. Thanks
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:03 AM
10mikeymike's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northville, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 51
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, the fuel filter didn't fix the problem so I'm back to one of my original questions. Which port on the carburetor should the vacum advance hose be connected to? It's presently hooked to the full time vacum port. Is there a possibility the timing is getting too much or too little advance as the engine transitions from cold to operating temperature? The problem is occuring under light to moderate acceleration. Do these circumstances call for a change in timing advance?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2008, 09:41 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 337
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Sounds to me like your choke is opening too quickly. The engine isn't fully warmed up and needs choking action. However if the choke is opening after 10-15 minutes, and you then have problems for the next 5-10, there may be another issue. In other words, having the choke stay on for about 25 minutes sounds like it would be masking another problem even if it cured teh symptoms. So...

How's your thermostat? Is the engine getting to operating temperature in that first 10-15 minutes?

Does your engine have a thermoswitch that allows stove heated air into the airbreather, and if so, is it working?

Some intake manifold gaskets do not come with openings for the manifold crossover exhaust heat, so it takes longer for the intake manifold to heat up. It would be a real pain to remove the manifold to find out, but perhaps you could borrow a temp gun and check the manifold temp after 15 minutes of running......see if it is close to your water temp.

Basically, as it runs fine once its been running for about 25 minutes, I would be concentrating on what is affecting engine temps that could cause it not to be fully warmed up when the choke opens (after 15 minutes).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2008, 11:21 AM
10mikeymike's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northville, MI
Age: 68
Posts: 51
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Argess
Sounds to me like your choke is opening too quickly. The engine isn't fully warmed up and needs choking action. However if the choke is opening after 10-15 minutes, and you then have problems for the next 5-10, there may be another issue. In other words, having the choke stay on for about 25 minutes sounds like it would be masking another problem even if it cured teh symptoms. So...

How's your thermostat? Is the engine getting to operating temperature in that first 10-15 minutes?

Does your engine have a thermoswitch that allows stove heated air into the airbreather, and if so, is it working?

Some intake manifold gaskets do not come with openings for the manifold crossover exhaust heat, so it takes longer for the intake manifold to heat up. It would be a real pain to remove the manifold to find out, but perhaps you could borrow a temp gun and check the manifold temp after 15 minutes of running......see if it is close to your water temp.

Basically, as it runs fine once its been running for about 25 minutes, I would be concentrating on what is affecting engine temps that could cause it not to be fully warmed up when the choke opens (after 15 minutes).
Agress, thanks for the response. Unfortunately, I don't think the choke opening too early is the problem. As indicated, I recently replaced the carburetor. I left the choke set as it came from the factory. After driving the car for more than 30 minutes I pulled the air cleaner off to check for leaks and noticed that the choke was still partially closed. Normally, the car reaches operating temperature (about 205 on the gauge) in about 10-15 minutes. I'm not even sure there is a thermostat in the engine, but I have to replace the housing anyway as there's a little dribble there when the engine is cold. I've experimented with the choke. I've tried the full closed when cold route. Edelbrock told me to set it with a 3/16' opening when cold and I've even used the full open approach. The only difference I've noted is that when it's set to full open the engine doesn't fast idle. I'm now becoming somewhat suspect of the air cleaner. It's a B&M heavy aluminun dual element type. I think this is the predecessor of the Holley Hi-Tech air filter. I don't think it flows a lot of air to begin with, but even if that's the case, wouldn't the mixture be rich instead of lean? I don't know what to look at next. The only things left are the fuel pump itself and the ignition. I'm at a point where I wish the problem would take place all the time. I'm getting tired of driving around my neighborhood for 20 minutes before I take the car out on the roads.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2008, 11:59 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 337
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Yes, your problem sounds like a pain. I still think it is temp related. Most engine problems are ignition related, but I would think you can eliminate "timing" as it runs fine once fully warmed up. Coils usually fail when hot, not cold, although there may be exceptions.

A weak ignition may have trouble firing the cylinders with a lean mixture, but again, once your car is fully warmed up, it seems fine.

This "leak" you have......is it bad enough to get the wires wet, then once you drive longer, the engine heat causes it to evaporate?

Check the PCV system (i.e. test the valve). It may be plugged, and as you have more blowby when the engine is cold, you may have trouble due to it.

If you have an EGR valve, give it a gentle whack with a hammer. It could be sticking open when cold.

These last ideas were pretty "out there" guesses......but I suppose.....

Anyway....I think I am stumped now too.......wish I could think of something more.....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
stumped with wagon. 68novafan Electrical 7 04-06-2006 08:20 AM
Need FI help. I am stumped so far! Siggy_Freud Engine 17 01-28-2005 06:22 AM
305 issues, im stumped imprtkllr Engine 10 09-24-2004 08:19 PM
Stumped...Motor clsscsb Engine 7 03-16-2004 12:44 AM
Code has me Stumped 8.5" 10 Bolt Posi Ghetto Jet Transmission - Rearend 1 03-13-2004 03:50 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.