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-   -   Strange thing happening with my clear "solvent pop"/"fish eyes" ? (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/strange-thing-happening-my-clear-solvent-pop-fish-eyes-60449.html)

myfamiliacc 03-27-2005 07:44 PM

Strange thing happening with my clear "solvent pop"/"fish eyes" ?
 
Having a strange thing happening.......

I was doing a 2 tone job using Dupont Nason bases and 4:1 clear ........
Starting with a well sanded 2k surfacer primer.

The first color was left to dry for 45 min before masking for the 2nd color, and it was left to dry for 30 min before laying down the clear...

The first coat of clear was a tack coat
the 2nd was a wet coat, and hear is were things went to Sh@#!

I got all this little pin head size “fish eye” looking spots all over. :mad:
I moved on to the second coat after 20 min flash time, same thing happened. :smash:

If I didn’t know better I would say it’s “solvent pop” but it couldn’t be........both color bases were dull and dry to the touch., with the first coat being laid over an hour before the clear.

I've had this happen 3 times now :confused: .........the first two times was on a fender and a hood........I did have some good jobs in-between..........but now it happened during a big job, and that's not cool..... :nono:

Since the first time it happened I've switched guns, compressor, air line, and water filter, and yet it still did it this time... :spank:

WHAT IS GOING ON!!! ? :(

The only fix I could think of for this job is 2 (15% reduced) flow coats with fish eye eliminator.......it did fill the wholes enough to were I will be able to cut and buff it smooth, but I would hate for this to happen again..

I’ve been painting for several years now, and I've never had anything like this happen till now.

BarryK 03-27-2005 07:56 PM

If I didn’t know better I would say it’s “solvent pop” but it couldn’t be........both color bases were dull and dry to the touch., with the first coat being laid over an hour before the clear.
************************************************** *****
The above does not mean a thing, if solvent trapped in first coat from lack of flash or COLD metal.

If pinheads or fish eyes happen in second coat of clear it is always solvent pop and the deeper they are the longer it will take to show up 1 min to 20 minutes.
But in first coat of clear it is always with rare exception trapped solvents in base.

myfamiliacc 03-27-2005 08:04 PM

One thing to add is that they are appearing instantly..........as though I’m spraying them on with the clear.
That’s why I was leaning toward water in the line, but I have both a wall mount water filter and a pre filter on the gun.........my pre-filter shows only slight condensation, not even a full drop in there.

baddbob 03-27-2005 08:10 PM

If it is a fisheye problem that didn't show on the first coat of clear then you may have an airborn contaminant that settled on the first coat of clear before applying the second coat. Did you turn the Booth/fan on and off? Could the airflow have picked up any contaminants between coats? Think about what was going on between the two coats that may have caused your air to pick up something. Are you sure it isn't moisture in the lines? If they are really small in size and very numerous I would guess it to be solvent popping.

AC/DC 03-27-2005 08:28 PM

On rare occasions water in line could cause the clear to "seed up" or if the clear/hardener are bad and even if you let the mixed clear set to long it could begin to react and cause this "seediness" to appear instantly as fisheye/pop bubbles. Most people who put on a first "tack" coat so lightly that these defects can't be seen.

This is just a guess and I hope you get it fixed easily!

Also, did you get the clear completely stired up? I had one guy who would give it a couple of stirs and go spray. All kinds of funny stuff happened!!

Just a thought.

myfamiliacc 03-27-2005 09:07 PM

Barry, Bob and AC/DC
Thanks for the good points

The clear was mixed well, and it was a recently purshased and unused product.

I switched compresor and air line for the second coat, but with no change, so I doubt it's an inline cantaminant.

I'm not working in a booth, but the shop is pretty clean, and I can't think of any air born cantaminants

The first coat of clear was a light tack coat, and I was unable to tell if it had any reaction


Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryK
The above does not mean a thing, if solvent trapped in first coat from lack of flash or COLD metal.

If pinheads or fish eyes happen in second coat of clear it is always solvent pop and the deeper they are the longer it will take to show up 1 min to 20 minutes.
But in first coat of clear it is always with rare exception trapped solvents in base.

I used fast reducer on the base coats........ no reducer on the clear until after the fact.

Outside temp is about 45*
Shop temp is a steady 65*
Metal temp---- ?

That is one thing I didn't think about.......the metal temp, but the shop was heated to 65* 2 hours befor painting......however I was doing some light wetsanding to, so I'm sure the water would have kept the metal temp down.

The more I ponder on it, the more it seems to be solvent pop :(

I did think I was taking the right steps with the fast reducer and long flash times........but the tempeture isn't the most Ideal, so it could just be that.....I hope it is, becouse I don't have to lie, this thing has got me all bumed out :(


In any way.......for future refrence
If you do get this "solvent pop" reaction.......A quick fix that seemed to work here is is layind down 2 wet coats of 15% reduced clear with a couple drops of fish eye eliminator.

It did fill in the pin holes leaving orange peel, and a few small runs, but those can be taking cared of during the cutting and buffing process.

MARTINSR 03-27-2005 09:18 PM

Adding "fisheye eleminator" can effect solvent pop because it is simply increasing surface tension. This sounds like solvent pop, you can get solvent pop with one coat! You don't need solvent in the base, or even the first coat of clear. If you apply a coat, any coat wet enough you can get solvent pop.

A hood and a fender huh? Probably on the top of the fender? It is human nature to apply it a little wetter on the top surfaces, wetter= solvent pop. Where was it applied when you were successful?

It could simply be what I call "when the planets are aligned". Last time it worked spraying it the same way, but the metal and shop temp were five degrees hotter. Or last time you sprayed it a drier and the shop temp was the same. You only had one of the factors out of whack. This time, the shop temp was as cold AND you sprayed it a little wet, WHAMO, planets were aligned and it failed.

First thing, loose the "tackcoat", apply two med wet coats and you will have a lot smoother finish.
Brian

myfamiliacc 03-27-2005 10:17 PM

3 Attachment(s)
"when the planets are aligned".

I think you may be right on that one Brian

anyway here are some pics...... There not the best photography but you'll get the idea

Close up
http://hotrodders.com/forums/attachm...tid=4408&stc=1

After 2nd coat of clear
http://hotrodders.com/forums/attachm...tid=4409&stc=1

After 2 coats of reduced clear with fish eye eleminator
http://hotrodders.com/forums/attachm...tid=4411&stc=1

ChrisMiddleron 03-27-2005 10:38 PM

You know wha! When I was painting a car a long time ago... Like 2 years ago I had the same problem but never knew what it was (till now), but looked exactally like that.

Wow

The paint job looks very nice though myfamiliacc :thumbup:

BarryK 03-28-2005 04:07 AM

Outside temp is about 45*
Shop temp is a steady 65*
Metal temp---- ?

That is one thing I didn't think about.......the metal temp, but the shop was heated to 65* 2 hours befor painting......however I was doing some light wetsanding to, so I'm sure the water would have kept the metal temp d************************************************* *******

If shop was warmed to 65 in 2 hours no way metal temp was even 55. It takes metal temp many hours to warm up. This is common problem in winter,

The first coat of anything sprayed on the cold metal will flash and the solvents against the metal will set there. Most likely like discussed earlier all your solvent is coming from first tack coat of base and cold metal.

Beenaway2long 03-28-2005 06:28 AM

FWIW

A friend of mine does auto restorations, and had a similar problem. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, it was traced to the "Blue Shop Towels" that come in a roll/box. He got a deal on a couple cases of them. Used them to wipe the car down. Changed towels, no more problem. Found out it wasn't such a deal...

baddbob 03-28-2005 07:52 AM

That looks pretty nasty, I've never seen solvent pop that extreme. It looks more like air contaimination IMO. Is the compressor blowing a lot of oil and water? That's unreal.

baddbob 03-28-2005 07:54 AM

If this was happening as fast as the clear was being applied I'd say it is contamination. If they showed up after it set for a bit the it would be solvent pop. Nasty.

MARTINSR 03-28-2005 08:24 AM

What I want to know guys, honestly, is my monitor/computer/hookup such junk that I couldn't tell if that paint had dirt, bugs, fisheyes, solvent pop, or parsley in it from those pictures?

There is no way in hell I could give ANY kind of advice from ANY photos that I see on the net when we are talking about something as small as fish eye, solvent po, etc.

I am being serious here, do you guys have what it takes computer wise to REALLY see something in those pictures?

Brian

mrcleanr6 03-28-2005 09:10 AM

no, the pics are really hard to tell anything. the only one that give any idea is the second where you can see the texture in the glare of the hood. obviously none of us can tell if its fish eyes or pop by the pics. i think they were just posted to show how severe it is.

lt is real hard to tell anything but i would start by following barry's advice by getting the metal temp warmer, however, if i had to go with my gut and since it went away when you added the fisheye eliminator i would say contamination. i also agree with what bob said. i haven't seen solvent pop show instantly like that. it usually shows after the clear has begun drying. only time i have seen anything close to that was when shooting this very super low grade productive clearcoat. didn't matter how clean the surface was this stuff would just fisheye on everything.


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