streetable 500hp 327? - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 08:26 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 994
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You won't find the intensity of the lobes an higher in a HR cam, they are less intense. You can look at all the Comp Cam lobes at:
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Cu...ML/238-273.asp

We use a Camcraft cam in our 331 - a 50-4040-10A4 roller, 240/240 on a 110 LSA installed at 106. It puts nearly 420 hp to the rear wheels and is very driveable.

http://www.camcraftcams.com/catalogs/xtl/tm_roller.htm

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 08:41 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,297
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 20
Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts
Contact the manufacturer of some of those cams. Also read the manual for the DDyno. Just because its a roller cam doesn't mean you should use the "roller" setting on the simulation. The manual will tell you more, but the lifter style setting has nothing to do with the actual lifter or its friction, it has to do with the ramp profile. Setting it to roller will make it think you're using the absolute most aggressive ramp profile but most cam manufacturers (especially in the range you're using) don't grind them that aggressive. For that duration I would simulate it using the solid flat lifters.

Also the exhaust makes a HUUUUGE difference. I noticed you simulated with open exhaust which is absolutely not streetable; legally or audially Plug in large tube headers and full exhuast and the solid flat lifters to simulate the ramp profile and I think you'll find your 500-hp screamer is a 400-hp streeter... still very respectful, but more realistic.

DD is incredibly close if you use it right. I'm always within 4%, but often times within 1 or 2%. It only took me about 8 years to get that good with it
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 09:28 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 994
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
DD is incredibly close if you use it right. I'm always within 4%, but often times within 1 or 2%. It only took me about 8 years to get that good with it

Within 4% of what? How do you use it right? When I was using DD I could never reconcile the exhaust system, where you are limited to about 4 choices. There were no provisions for accessories, windage, friction, runner length, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 10:29 PM
rlackey's Avatar
Rich Lackey
 

Last journal entry: Rich Lackey is back on Hotrodders!
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Centurion, South Africa
Age: 34
Posts: 331
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, I'm going to run it again, I'll post the results a bit later.

Rich
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2005, 02:10 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,297
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 20
Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by onovakind67
Within 4% of what? How do you use it right? When I was using DD I could never reconcile the exhaust system, where you are limited to about 4 choices. There were no provisions for accessories, windage, friction, runner length, etc.
Within 4% of the actual engine's power after it was built. I've used it to build a pontiac 389, a pontiac 455, two 454s, one buick 455, three Ford windsors, and a caddy 500. The Caddy was within 2 hp

You can get sorta close with DD if you just plug in stuff, but to really get accurate with it you have to have an almost intrinsic grasp of VE theory and how it affects every aspect of the other parameters you've put in. The fact is that the subtle differences between windage trays and friction aren't part of what DD can predict. DD uses VE... that's it. A windage tray may or may not do anything for power depending on its design, RPM, and which aftermarket tray you're using. You can't predict friction, nor can you plan on it, but friction doesn't account for how an engine SHOULD perform. That's all DD does. It assumes you are using the proper level of octane, your spark curve is perfect, your fuel curve is perfect, your friction is within tolerance, your oil pump is providing a standard torque loss, etc. Its just a tool for estimating how much air it ingests based on physics, then how many BTUs can be released from the fuel corresponding to the amount of air you've ingested. Then it calculates the force to the piston and integrates it with the leverage on the crank at all 360 degrees and bingo... torque estimates.

The thing is, DD uses VE to estimate a torque curve and extrapolates hp. Using its current details, you can get darn close. If you start delineating between 2.5" and 2.25" exhaust tubes and their length, windage trays and their effectiveness, and other small details, not only will it add just a tiny bit more accuracy, its also more junk for the end-user to abuse. On a simulation, everybody uses a windage tray, 4" exhaust, and low friction rings, but on the street we have wallets, ears, and vacuum advance canisters that dictate what parts we use.

DD estimates crankshaft tq, so accessories aren't a factor, nor are drivetrain losses or altitude since it assumes that in the hands of the experienced user, you know that it assumes STP at sea level and you have to base it on your climate and altitude.

DD in the hands of a pro builder is highly accurate since he/she knows by experience how much they can expect from a Milodon windage tray in a Mopar 440. In the hands of a casual user it usually ends up highly optimistic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2005, 03:34 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Tri-Cities, TN
Posts: 726
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I was asked to work a spec engine project about 4 years ago. The goal was to have a very low compression low maintenance engine with a max of 6000 rpm. We need to sell it for 5999.00

Here was the build
355 CID
9 to 1 Hypereutectic pistons
Brodix Spec Head
Brodix Single Plane Spec Intake
Holley 4779 out of the box
Hyd Cam. I had Richard at Isky grind this it was 250 @ .50' and around 540" lift single pattern on a 108 with 4 degrees advance ground into it.
Timing was at 34 degress (conservative)
Gas was 93 Octane

Engine Made 424HP at 5800 rpm and around 475#/ft of torq around 4400.

This thing was mild for a circle track engine but there is no way it would be "enjoyable" on the street. With your project to make that kind of power you are going to have to turn it up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2005, 04:52 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 994
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You can get sorta close with DD if you just plug in stuff, but to really get accurate with it you have to have an almost intrinsic grasp of VE theory and how it affects every aspect of the other parameters you've put in.

After I develop this 'intrinsic grasp' of VE theory, how do I fudge the inputs?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:19 PM
curtis73's Avatar
Hates: Liver. Loves: Diesel
 
Last wiki edit: How to find cheap parts
Last journal entry: Found an LQ9 today
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Carlisle, PA
Age: 41
Posts: 5,297
Wiki Edits: 16

Thanks: 20
Thanked 20 Times in 15 Posts
You don't fudge inputs. If I'm simulating building a mild 307 roller Olds, I use the hydraulic flat lifter setting. Why? Because of the ramp profile on the cam, not the lifter. The amount of air flowing into the engine doesn't care how much friction there is at the tappet. It takes a flow curve and calculates how much time the valve spends at certain lifts using the ramp speed as part of that equation. It uses that to determine how much air actually makes it into the cylinder. Ham-fisted newbies would just put "roller lifters" since it uses roller lifters and their numbers would be way off.

Its not fudging. I have discovered that every once in a while I can mess with exhaust lift or duration by one degree or .010" lift in either direction to help simulate a full exhaust in a long station wagon versus a short Chevette, but its by no mean science. You're better off letting DD estimate what the engine would do on a dyno stand then being realistic about the actual installation. I came up with 400 hp on my latest 454 build. The actual numbers were 412 on the dyno with a water pump and 2.5" straight exhaust and 40-series Flowmasters. After I installed it with a power steering pump, alternator, and full 2.5" exhuast with 70-series mufflers and several bends, I'm guessing in the area of 390.

You're trying to get too specific. DD is not designed to make perfect guesses based on every aspect of the installation. That's for the installer to determine. Your best guess is to put it on a chassis dyno, but then how much do you estimate for drivetrain losses, exhaust losses, driveline angles, etc?

Nothing is exact. I simulate engines on DD and test the built engine on a Dynojet. If I took that same engine to another dyno I might be 20 hp off. What that also means is that my accuracy with DD is pointless since its based on one dyno bay. The actual amount of HP that finished product makes is a complete mystery and can never be duplicated twice... even on the same dyno. Back to back runs produce different numbers on the same machine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 06:47 PM
jjfarr's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 5
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
327 500hp

Update: Check this out for all you who doubt the 327 SBC has the most HP per inch potential: http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ild/index.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 06:56 PM
Jmark's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: phoenix
Age: 61
Posts: 4,925
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 13
Thanked 47 Times in 36 Posts
Yahoo!!! But only a measly 10 grand too! LOL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 08:43 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: NC
Age: 33
Posts: 240
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Popular Hotrodding had the '09 Engine Masters' tournament in their most recent magazine. There was a 327 in the pages that made in the neighborhood of 540hp. Check it out, it may still be on the magazine rack or look at their website, might be on there... anywho, seems like I remember reading they were using an AFR 210cc head (or a 15 degree GM Bowite head- or maybe that was on a 302SBC in the test) with a 2.1 intake valve and a comp cams solid roller, something like 260 adv. duration and .638 lift.


In my very humble opinion you might not need the parts they used but something similar should point you in the right direction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:18 PM
jjfarr's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 5
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
10K buys Alot

LOL. Worth every penny!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:22 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 5,099
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 117 Times in 93 Posts
Someone told me they were racing dyno programs in here?

You kids are gonna get caught by the cops racing them things.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:26 PM
jjfarr's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 5
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cops Suck

What up Jaw Chuck? Spin'em higher!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2009, 09:38 PM
jjfarr's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 5
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sorry Guys. Didn't mean to scare you!

Just havin fun! Twisty!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DZ 302 Vs 327 ???? oc00l Engine 37 11-18-2008 10:53 AM
help make my 327 angry!!! 70chevelle327 Engine 40 04-24-2007 06:33 PM
327 build up using 1964 and earlier parts ONLY chopperimpala Engine 23 10-06-2005 02:07 PM
327 TO 350 CONVERSION 34FordPickUp Engine 4 08-27-2002 06:56 PM
327 rebuild help. SUGGESTIONS PLEASE DeezImpala Engine 1 06-24-2002 10:06 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.