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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 12:19 PM
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streetable 500hp 327?

Hi guys,

I was going to tag this post onto my "streetability?" thread, but I couldn't find it.

After research, taking into account all of your input, and hours of Desktop Dyno iterator tests (days actually) this is the meanest naturally aspirated 327 I can possibly come up with.

Big flat torque curve from 2000rpm to 6000rpm peaking at only 4500rpm, peak power at 6000rpm. If these numbers were 100% (which I know they aren't) this is a 475ft/lb 500hp motor. I know there are many people that have replied to my posts before saying it can't be done, but even if the numbers are off, there is no denying this is a monster small displacement small block.

This build is a factory 327 block, 0.030 overbore, 10.38:1 compression with AFR 195 Street heads. I used the actual flow data for these tests so that part at least is accurate.

What is funny is that the larger 195 heads produced less power and torque than the 190 heads, and it seems from the AFR website that the 190's aren't offered anymore only the 180 or 195.

The best cam (and I spent days running every duration from 230 to 290 and .500 to .600 lift) is a 250/275 .600/.600 112.8 109. I know some of you have reccomended not using a dual pattern cam with AFR heads, but the numbers seemed to indicate differently.

So my question is, from the build info I have given, plus the torque and power curves shown is this going to be a street friendly motor? Have I finally arrived at a motor I can use?

Rich

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2005, 12:27 PM
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Anything is "Streetable", just depends on how many hickups and quirks you are willing to deal with
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:34 PM
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Oops, I made a mistake in my post, the chart (and the best results I had) are with the 190 Street heads not the 195's.

Rich
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Old 12-20-2005, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubz
Anything is "Streetable", just depends on how many hickups and quirks you are willing to deal with
I'm thinking in terms of idle, fouling plugs, tuneability, required stall speed of the torque converter and so forth. I know 6000rpm peak is still high for a street motor so I would expect that I will still have to take special care of the valvetrain, but hopefully not as much as the 7500rpm 327 build this started out from.

Rich
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Old 12-20-2005, 01:29 PM
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EA3.2 isn't nearly as kind with the power....

RPM···········2000····2500····3000····3500····4000 ····4500····5000····5500····6000····6500
Brake_Tq······253·····330·····359·····364·····391· ····406·····399·····382·····359·····331
Brake_HP······96.2····157·····205·····242·····298· ····348·····380·····400·····410·····410
Exh_Pres······.0······.0······.0······.0······.0·· ····.0······.0······.0······.0······.0
Int_Vacuum····0.0·····.1······.2······.2······.3·· ····.4······.6······.7······.8······.8
Vol_Eff_%·····73.2····84.4····89.5····91.1····96.7 ····101.1···102.3···101.6···99.9····97.5
Actual_CFM····151·····218·····277·····329·····399· ····471·····530·····579·····620·····656
Fuel_Flow·····55.3····79.7····101·····120·····146· ····172·····194·····212·····227·····240
A/F_Mix_Qal···83.7····96.2····99.1····100.0···100.0· ··100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0
BSFC··········.574····.507····.494····.497····.490 ····.494····.509····.528····.553····.584
BSAC··········7.203···6.366···6.203···6.231···6.14 3···6.202···6.390···6.627···6.933···7.329
Friction_HP···18······26······36······48······62·· ····79······99······122·····148·····177
Mach_#········.135····.168····.202····.236····.269 ····.303····.337····.370····.404····.438
Piston_Spd····1083····1354····1625····1896····2167 ····2438····2708····2979····3250····3521
Piston_Gs·····237·····371·····534·····727·····949· ····1201····1483····1794····2136····2506
Overlap_%VE···-2.6····2.0·····2.1·····-.5·····1.2·····2.6·····2.8·····2.7·····2.5·····2.2
Int_AvgVel····104·····130·····155·····181·····207· ····233·····259·····285·····311·····337
In_InertiaPrs·.2······.8······1.4·····2.0·····2.5· ····2.9·····3.0·····2.9·····2.6·····2.3
In_ResTunPrs··0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0· ····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0
Ex_AvgVel·····108·····135·····162·····188·····215· ····242·····269·····296·····323·····350
ExTun_Prs·····1.2·····-.2·····-.3·····0.0·····-.3·····-1.2····-1.7····-2.0····-2.0····-1.7
Valve_Toss····None····None····None····None····None ····None····None····None····None····None
Spark_Adv·····28······26······28······32······33·· ····33······34······35······36······36
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Old 12-20-2005, 02:18 PM
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To a true hot rodder, the only difference between a race car and a street car, is that one of them has license plates.
Bob
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Old 12-20-2005, 02:26 PM
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Bob, thats what I thought too but was quickly convinced to abandon my 7500rpm screamer, so now this is after going back to the drawing board. The result is a lot more low end torque and peak hp 1500rpm less than before.

onovakind67, your numbers are a bit more modest, but perhaps more accurate?

Thanks for posting those results, they are a big help to me to compare to DD2000.

Rich
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Old 12-20-2005, 02:31 PM
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I think the DD numbers were a little "friendly". I didn;t read your other post, but I have to ask why are you limiting yourself to 327 cubic inches? Don't get me wrong I love 327's for what they are. It sounds to me like you want all the power you can afford, limiting your engine to a 327 leaves a lot of power on the table.

As far as streetability goes, that will vary from person to person. If it runs on pump gas, it is streetable in my book.
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Old 12-20-2005, 03:10 PM
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Onovakind67

It would surely be interesting to see if changing to a 262/262 degree cam, all other things unchanged, would show an improvement in EA3.2. I did hundreds of Dyno runs with both EA3 and DD2000 before I ordered some of my components. I found using EA3 that the optimum durations generally had the intake open longer than the exhaust, and of course that is not what DD2000 is leading Rich toward. Personally, I wound up using a single pattern cam. What did the recommendations suggest for camshaft changes when you ran Rich's configuration?? If you pick up on this response, perhaps you could make the change and another quick run two to see what EA3.2 says.

Pat
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Old 12-20-2005, 03:50 PM
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First thing - good luck finding a 250° advertised lobe with .600 lift at the valve. The smallest SR lobe that Comp makes is a 4780 - 256° adv @ .015", 218° @ .050" with .360 lobe lift, giving you .560" lift with a 1.6 rocker. I used this lobe in my example. I used the 4783 lobe on the exhaust - 274° adv, 236° @ .05", .376" lobe lift.

I didn't ask for any recommendations, I just ran the program.

A 262° lobe will have about 224° duration @ .05", and this is what it came out to be:


RPM···········2000····2500····3000····3500····4000 ····4500····5000····5500····6000····6500
Brake_Tq······255·····329·····357·····363·····381· ····406·····399·····383·····359·····332
Brake_HP······97.0····157·····204·····242·····291· ····348·····380·····401·····410·····411
Exh_Pres······.0······.0······.0······.0······.0·· ····.0······.0······.0······.0······.0
Int_Vacuum····0.0·····.1······.1······.2······.3·· ····.4······.6······.7······.8······.9
Vol_Eff_%·····72.4····83.1····88.0····90.0····95.1 ····101.2···102.6···102.1···100.4···98.1
Actual_CFM····150·····215·····273·····325·····393· ····471·····531·····581·····623·····659
Fuel_Flow·····54.7····78.5····99.6····119·····144· ····172·····194·····212·····228·····241
A/F_Mix_Qal···83.5····96.1····98.9····100.0···100.0· ··100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0
BSFC··········.564····.500····.488····.491····.494 ····.495····.510····.529····.555····.586
BSAC··········7.069···6.276···6.126···6.160···6.19 6···6.215···6.404···6.641···6.956···7.354
Friction_HP···18······26······37······49······63·· ····80······101·····124·····150·····180
Mach_#········.133····.166····.199····.233····.266 ····.299····.332····.365····.399····.432
Piston_Spd····1083····1354····1625····1896····2167 ····2438····2708····2979····3250····3521
Piston_Gs·····237·····371·····534·····727·····949· ····1201····1483····1794····2136····2506
Overlap_%VE···-2.0····2.0·····1.9·····-.7·····-.2·····2.5·····2.7·····2.6·····2.3·····2.1
Int_AvgVel····104·····130·····155·····181·····207· ····233·····259·····285·····311·····337
In_InertiaPrs·.2······.8······1.4·····2.0·····2.6· ····3.0·····3.1·····3.0·····2.8·····2.4
In_ResTunPrs··0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0· ····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0
Ex_AvgVel·····108·····135·····162·····188·····215· ····242·····269·····296·····323·····350
ExTun_Prs·····1.1·····-.2·····-.2·····.3······-.1·····-1.2····-1.8····-2.1····-1.9····-1.7
Valve_Toss····None····None····None····None····None ····None····None····None····None····None
Spark_Adv·····29······26······28······32······33·· ····33······34······35······36······36
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Old 12-20-2005, 04:09 PM
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327 small block

I think a 327 sb. is one of the best engines Chevy ever made. In 1975 I rebuilt a 1968 327 for my camaro. A mild solid lifter cam 10 1/2 to 1 compression. I don't remember what carb. I had on it, but in second gear I would get up to 8,000 rpm. The heads were Chevy 194 intakes. I always wondered why the engine started to pop at that rpm. I did not have strong springs and I had a Mallory dual point dis. I was only a kid then. If you want some high rpms, go to a 283 crank. 327 block + 283 crank = 302. 8,000rpm easy.
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Old 12-20-2005, 04:11 PM
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Onovakind67

I agree the cam specs are not likely obtainable. Perhaps with a roller, but probably never with flat tappets on a SBC. Rich's ability to obtain the camshaft was not the point. Nor was it my point to make recommendations. It was an experiment to find out if EA3.2 would deliver, qualitatively, the same sort of camshaft performance results for the AFR heads on a 327 that EA3 did for me on a 350. That was the reason for my request. I always found that with AFRs, due to the very high E/I flow ratios, EA3 "liked" single pattern cams better than the dual pattern (longer exhaust) cams as most suppliers configure them. I also found that optimizing camshafts (total E+I duration, advance and LCA constant) for the 350 chevy with AFR heads always resulted in rather peculiar grind recommendations that had the intake duration actually longer than the exhaust. That was contrary to what DD2000 was leading Rich toward.

Thanks for taking the time to do the run(s). It's pretty clear that the dual pattern cam continues to shine over the single pattern cam in EA3.2. Interesting test. And, for me at least, a surprizing result. I wonder if . . .

Pat
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Old 12-20-2005, 04:38 PM
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If you believe the EA3.2 results, the Edelbrock E-tech 170's are a really fine head for the 327" motors. If I swap from the AFR190's to the E-tech 170's the average torque goes up about 10#ft and the average hp up about 4.
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Old 12-20-2005, 04:51 PM
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That's not so surprizing. The 170 cc heads much better fit the "Cu In/2" rule-of-thumb formula that I saw somewhere else recently. A 327, even at 6000 RPM, isn't drawing the kind of continuous flow that demands a high efficiency 195cc port. That's probably why Rich's DD2000 showed better results with the AFR 190s than with the AFR 195s. And the much smaller 170 E-Techs simply speed up the flow more, and likely improve the atomization in the process.

The AFRs might look better at 7000 RPM than the E-Tecs. A 327 tries to draw almost exactly the same total air at 7000 RPM as a 383 tries to at 6000. And I've gotta believe that just about any respectable 383 would run better with the AFR 195s than 170cc Edelbrocks.

Thanks again for the interesting insights.

Pat
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Old 12-20-2005, 07:00 PM
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Hmm, I didn't think about how obtainable that cam was, I just assumed it could be custom ground. I was thinking solid roller, but I have been wondering about AFR's "hydra rev" kit and whether it might let me get away with a hydraulic roller without valve float. Would it be any more likely to get such a cam as a solid or hydraulic roller?

Otherwise I'll run the other cam mentioned in DD2000 also and see what happens.

Rich
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