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  #421 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centerline
Another convoluted answer to a direct question.
Jon already knew the answers to his questions so why ask the question to begin with?

I mean does it make the answers any better if I say it or any truer?

Does it change history if I admit that George Levin owns Street Beasts?

When CMC was locked out of their factory and all their molds, parts, and equipment were still in the building Kit car companies around the nation sent people to Miami to see if they could buy all the stuff that belonged to CMC from the owner of the land that the factory was on.

They were planning an auction to divvy up contents. One individual even climbed the tower and stole the speedster that was on the top of the building in the dead of night using a rope and a pulley.

The kit car community was all to willing to let CMC have it's share of the market until they built their first V-8 car.

Then the kit car people freaked out, because they knew it was only a matter of time before CMC built a Cobra and that they feared more than anything else.

At one time there were fifty seven companies building Cobras, you want to talk about cars that never got built or back orders or just cars that could not be built, 57 different versions of the Shelby Cobra.

And CMC never wanted to build a Cobra, our customers demanded one

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  #422 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 06:57 PM
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Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to post the history of the company. Nicely done.

You need not defend yourself any further.

All's well that ends well. Thanks for posting,

Jay K.
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  #423 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Centerline
My problem is that I see a company who specifically targets newcomers to the hobby with what many people consider a poor product. I would guess by the number of unfinished kits that have been for sale over the years, that there are literally hundreds of Streetbeast customers who have given up on their projects simply because they purchased something they thought would go together easily and without the need for shadetree engineering. Something they weren't prepared for or were not capable of doing.

The product Streetbeast sells can be built into a useful vehicle but that doesn't excuse the God awful looks, poor design, and high pressure sales tactics the company has used. I just want to make sure that anyone who is considering purchasing one of these "kits" and who actually does take the time to do some research has access to all sides of the issue and can therefore make an informed decision. There will always be those who fall prey to high pressure sales tactics and for those people all we can offer is moral support and technical assistance. I just want people to know what they're getting into before plunking down thousands of dollars on a "kit" that kinda sorta looks like the real thing if you're wearing coke bottle glasses.
Give me a break, your logic is flawed. You should have listened to spok.
There are hundreds, thousands of un-finished projects out there. Cars and trucks that people have abandoned because it ended up being more than they could handle or afford. So you using that argument over and over again is pointless about this product.
Maybe it is a poor product, maybe not. Just because you see it as ugly, doesn't mean that others think the same way you do. It's the same argument from some of you guys about rat rods. You claim it's because they're unsafe, but in reality, you think they're ugly and don't suit your tastes.
Why are you pounding your chest so much about this? It looks personal to me and if I were in these other guys shoes I'd be reacting the same way, always on the defense.
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  #424 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justdig
1) Give me a break, your logic is flawed.

2)There are hundreds, thousands of un-finished projects out there. Cars and trucks that people have abandoned because it ended up being more than they could handle or afford. So you using that argument over and over again is pointless about this product.

3) Maybe it is a poor product, maybe not.

4) Why are you pounding your chest so much about this? It looks personal to me and if I were in these other guys shoes I'd be reacting the same way, always on the defense.
1) How is the logic flawed ??
The StreetBeast Company is owned by the same folks who owned it when it was shut down by the state of Florida and currently run by some of the same folks

2) It is TRUE that the country is littered with unfinished and abandoned projects ... but most DID NOT pay over ten thousand dollars for something they thought was a easy build ... like the StreetBeast projects are advertised to be. Most abandoned projects are started by newbies who had no idea of what they where getting into and bought a cheap little something to play with. The StreetBeast owners ... forked over thousands of dollars for their project ... and like the others ... were newbies who did not have a clue as to what they were getting into ... but they HAD $$$ .

3) The lawsuits and general reputation ... would indicate to most any reasonable person with a little intelligence that the product is poor and make them wary of StreetBeast .

4) Of course the EMPLOYEES of StreetBeast are on the defense. They want to keep their jobs and make sales ( which is a requirement for them to stay in business and have a job ) . That's the only reason they are here posting. Trying to put a " little spin " on the topic.

JGK95 ... is on the defense because he and his Dad bought one ... against the advice of almost everyone here on Hotrodders.com


I have yet to see any great number of satisfied StreetBeast builders/owners come to the defense of StreetBeast or their two employees posting here. We have over 70 thousand ( yes ... seventy thousand ) members. With StreetBeast claiming to be the largest kit car manufacturer going ... it stands to reason ( to a logical person with a little intelligence ) that the number of StreetBeast owners/builders should be quite high should be quite high out of 70 thousand members ...

Where are they ??
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  #425 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 08:22 PM
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I figure if they have over 10k to spend on a product, they should be able to research the product on their own without the saviors on this board coming to their rescue....lol
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  #426 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 09:17 PM
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Streetbeast folks -- Admitting that Levin owns StreetBeasts doesn't "change history". It establishes credibility. Which, by the way, comes from honest communication, and not deception.

I think it's obvious that you've been trying to present the situation as if StreetBeasts "bought" Classic Motor Carriages, and unfairly inherited their reputation. For example, in this post, you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetbeastOptsMan
we bought the molds and equipment from CMC , we also assumed 6 million dollars in liabilities from them
Faced with that sentence, a non-savvy person might think that Streetbeasts was a new, separate company, run by a different person, who just happened to purchase Classic Motor Carriages. It might be more helpful to mention that both companies were owned by the exact same person.

It reminds me of this post on TwoGuysGarage.com, where a Streetbeasts representative posting as "zenmaster" intercepts a thread and says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zenmaster on TwoGuysGarage.com
We are not Classic Motor Carriages. Innovative Street Machines purchased the molds and tooling they used. This is an understandable mis-identification on Terry's part, since the products are so similar, and we are in the same state, but it simply is not true.
I love how he tries to spin it as another poster's "mis-identification", because the products are similar, and you're "in the same state". Classic .

The "Spock" logic post is downright comical, especially as your own posts are fraught with common logical fallacies. You have several that would qualify as the logical fallacy known as a Red Herring, while Grandpa Cobra's last post clearly embodies the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Pity. Personal Attack is also recognized as a logical fallacy.

Most amusing so far has been your paltry legal threat, complete with clumsy misspelling of "libel", in this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetbeastOptsMan
This has been turned over to our attorney and you will be contacted if not already , I dont think you have enough equity in those cars you own to withstand a Civil Liable Lawsuit , if I were you Id pull the plug on this thread immediately and walk away, and remove the Wiki site from your main page , let people find it on their own

Govern yourself accordingly
Each of these failed forum intercepts provides additional practice in handling dishonest marketers, and, more importantly, allows us to increase our savvy.
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  #427 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon
Streetbeast folks -- Admitting that Levin owns StreetBeasts doesn't "change history". It establishes credibility. Which, by the way, comes from honest communication, and not deception.

I think it's obvious that you've been trying to present the situation as if StreetBeasts "bought" Classic Motor Carriages, and unfairly inherited their reputation. For example, in this post, you say:



Faced with that sentence, a non-savvy person might think that Streetbeasts was a new, separate company, run by a different person, who just happened to purchase Classic Motor Carriages. It might be more helpful to mention that both companies were owned by the exact same person.

It reminds me of this post on TwoGuysGarage.com, where a Streetbeasts representative posting as "zenmaster" intercepts a thread and says:



I love how he tries to spin it as another poster's "mis-identification", because the products are similar, and you're "in the same state". Classic .

The "Spock" logic post is downright comical, especially as your own posts are fraught with common logical fallacies. You have several that would qualify as the logical fallacy known as a Red Herring, while Grandpa Cobra's last post clearly embodies the logical fallacy known as Appeal to Pity. Personal Attack is also recognized as a logical fallacy.

Most amusing so far has been your paltry legal threat, complete with clumsy misspelling of "libel", in this post.



Each of these failed forum intercepts provides additional practice in handling dishonest marketers, and, more importantly, allows us to increase our savvy.
Well said.

Here is the information from the State of Florida that documents the FACT that Street Beast IS indeed owned by Auto Resolutions LTD, aka George Lavin.

Here's a little more info to help document this scam. How about a copy of the Application for Registration of Fictitious Name (Street Beasts) signed by George Lavin.

Last edited by Centerline; 08-12-2008 at 11:04 PM.
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  #428 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2008, 11:30 PM
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I just read the Miami New times article and it is bull bleep.

For instance.....

Quote:
An elderly Cuban man in fatigues and a gingham cap used a blowtorch to craft hinges from thick slabs of steel. Nearby, three others in hazmat suits swiveled a giant mechanical arm and then sprayed thin layers of fiberglass thread into a mold for a 1933 Ford Victoria.
Anyone see anything wrong with this picture?

According to the New Times we have a guy with a blowtorch bending metal right next to a crew using a chopper gun to spray a mold.

Let me assure everyone that just cringed at the thought that at no time is a blowtorch or a welder anywhere near fiberglass being sprayed into a mold, but yet this is the sort of picture this journalist paints.

But of course there is more...

Quote:
Besides the 1933 Victoria, Street Beasts sells kits for the 1934 Jeep Willy, a 1934 Ford cabriolet, a 1944 Ford three-window coupe, and the 1966 Shelby Cobra.
I bet you didn't even know we made a 1934 Jeep Willy or a 1944 ford Three window coupe. Hell I bet Ford didn't know they made a three window coupe in 1944 either.

One wonders what other facts they didn't even check out, I mean I'm sure for this article they must have picked up at least one brochure maybe even looked at the pictures,the words describing what we make should have been printed there in......

Quote:
The firm was forced to close in 1994 after the Florida Attorney General's Office filed suit against it on behalf of hundreds of defrauded customers.
How many times have you ever heard of a company being forced to close after a suit has been filed against it? Did Chervolet close it's does after Nader exposed the Corvair? Or Ford after someone discovered that Pintos explode on impact? the mere act of filing a suit does not shut down a comapny it only can be shut down when the case is decided.


Quote:
By 1994 the state had amassed 900 complaints thanks in part to a campaign by local consumer watchdog Stuart Rado and California car-guide publisher Curt Scott. The Florida Attorney General's Office sued the company in July of that year. And Classic closed down the following November after sales plummeted and it was evicted from its headquarters
That should read "By 1994 Curt Scott with the help of Stuart Rado had amassed 900 complaints partially by using UPS data given to them by The North Dakota Attorney general who got Classic Motor Carriages UPS data while he was investigating a rival company, Classic Roadsters.

The North Dakota Attorney General turned the information over to Curt Scott and Stuart Rado Instead of giving it to The Florida Attorney General. In July of that year Classic Motor Carriage stopped all advertising and a deal was made with the Florida Attorney General to allow the company to rename itself "Classic Auto Replicas" or CARS while it struggled to correct the complaints generated by Scott and Rado.

CARS was locked out of it's building by the land owner who had refused to allow the company to continue its factory operations there. Kit Car companies across the country were invited to an auction of FF/CMC/CARS assets but were sent home empty handed when The factory was ordered reopened so that CMC/FF/CARS could remove its assets from the building and grounds."

Just so you know I was the one that removed The Classic Motor Carriages Sign from the front of the building in July, and I was creating a CARS sign to replace it before we were locked out of the factory.

Quote:
Meanwhile the case continued wending its way through the courts until 1999, when the company was ordered to pay nearly three million dollars in restitution and fines for fraudulent business practices.
What this article doesn't say is that anyone in particular was found guilty or that George Levin was actually fined three million dollars in fines directly to the State of Florida, it is at best ambiguous and cleverly worded (despite the misspelled word)to make it seem as if the state of Florida finally after five years was able to reach a judgment against CMC.

I have perhaps a better less ambiguous explanation, that after five years of answering the complaints created by Curt Scott the last one was answered and the Florida State Attorney General was satisfied.

There are many reasons why we had complaints, some of them were self inflicted but I will say that at least 75% were not, and were the direct result of Curt Scott's actions.

Anyone make any money off the exploding gas tank Chevrolet Pickups? I never did but I'm sure that everyone that had one received an invitation to join a class action suit, that was the way Curt Scott and Stuart Rado sold CMC's customers on lodging a complaint...Act now and get your money back while there still money to be had. I received the Rado $$ flyers from customers.

And now the end of the article and the best proof so far that is is bullbleep....

Quote:
Other customers have been so pleased that they've bought multiple cars. Among them is Ronald Mayberry, a 64-year-old retiree who lives amid the rolling, brush-covered hills of Duncan, Oklahoma. He bought his first Street Beast kit, a 1934 Ford three-window coupe, after his mother died in the late Nineties. "My dad was kind of lost," he recalls. "I thought getting into street-rodding would give us something to do together and let him get his mind off the mourning." The duo spent nearly two years outfitting the car with everything from a Chevy 350 motor to an overdrive transmission and power windows. Then they glazed their creation with metallic purple paint. Shortly after it was finished, they ordered and built a 1933 Victoria.

To house the cars, Mayberry constructed an old-fashioned garage, complete with checkered floors, a penny scale, and antique gas pumps. He has also taken to attending street rod shows. "It's like going back to better times, when life moved slower," he explains. "The cars really transport you."
A happy customer and he and his dad have actually bought and built two of our cars cue the twilight zone music..............

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  #429 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 12:00 AM
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I don't know if he was "found" guilty. By my understanding, Levin/CMC "pled" guilty.

The article doesn't say that they were using a blowtorch "right next to" a chopper gun. It says "nearby". Adjusting "nearby" to "right next to" is just spin.

Also, "wending" is not a misspelling. "Wend" is a verb meaning "to go" or "to proceed along".

A reporter screwing up the year on car models doesn't constitute a significant loss of credibility. Not like, say, telling people that you guys "bought the molds" from CMC, when, really, you just opened up under a new name.

I'd be interested to see how you might pick apart the similar articles in the Miami Herald, the Associated Press, the Los Angeles Times, Car and Driver, and Inside Edition.

900 complaints? And you're saying that those complaints were "generated" by two people working against CMC? Ridiculous.
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  #430 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 06:00 AM
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"Street Beasts" are "JUNK".........Bottom line............If you don't understand that fact, then you don't have a "Clue".........

Ken
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  #431 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 06:26 AM
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The moon is nearby the earth right? well I guess everything is relative, it depends on where you are standing...

The article doesn't say anyone pled guilty, you are assuming that was the case because of the ambiguous way it is written, it is entirely possible but totally unrecognized by you that the complaints were satisfied to an extent that was no need to render a judgment.

Usually that's how these things work, a suit is filed, the company is given a chance to come up with a solution, if it does the suit is then dropped and no one goes to jail or is fined. Fraud on the level that was alleged in this case surely would be big time jail time.



I am sure you are closely monitoring the case of Unique Performance (the Elenore GT-500E "kit car" builders) and know what what is happening there.

It is a stark contrast to this case, CMC worked with the Attorney General from almost the very beginning (begrudgingly at first) and when it became apparent through customer interviews that the majority of these complaints were being generated by flyers, direct contact, and Curt Scott's articles literally begging for people to join him in some sort of crusade against CMC, CMC was given the time it needed to resolve the issues, something Unique is won't getting...

I wonder why?

And what you also may not be aware of this but in the case of Classic Roasters, charges were brought against the owner, a far different thing then happened here, and I seem to remember although I'm not quite sure but besides that company going bankrupt and being sold at least one person went to jail.

Again the difference: a willingness to not only work with the customers but with the authorities....

Call it a willingness to "wend" along

I've read Patrick Bedard's column on CMC, it was no article, where he says he couldn't build a CMC car and that none of his tools say Craftsman, that they only say "crescent".

I honestly find it had to believe that one of the premier Automotive writers, a former indy car driver and all around auto aficionado relies on nothing but a adjustable wrench to build his own cars, but I won't say he lied rather that apparently it seems he only knows how to use a crescent. It must have been a humbling experience to have to admit to it to his legions of fans.

and yes I will say Curt Scott or rather Stuart Rado did generate 900 complaints using insider information, UPS data obtained from The North Dakota Attorney General, and feedback Curt Scott received from his magazine, it is entirely possible that he contacted at least three times that amount and maybe even more at a time when according to the Miami New Times CMC was delivering over 300 kits a year and had been doing so since at least 1985.

What was the cost of a stamp back then a quarter? It wouldn't be that hard to do for someone that lives on one of the richest island in Miami, is a self styled consumer advocate and unemployed because he has other financial means of support.

It certainly didn't happen over night either, there were months of flyer mailings. Most went to people that asked only for sales brochures by mail, weren't even customers yet, and were entered into CMC's computer as prospected buyers.

That was part of what exposed the person inside that was feeding the information to Scott and Rado. Somehow George Levin's mother was sent a sales brochure and soon she started receiving Rado's flyers and stuff from Curt Scott as well.

As I have said because it was a orchestrated attack generating the complaints, because there was an insider willing to help create the complaints, because of the methods Curt Scott and Stuart Rado used to increase the number of complaints by threatening vendors with legal action, because there was a willingness to resolve the complaints, because CMC literally gave the attorney general everything they asked for, Street Beasts exist today.

I told you, you wouldn't like my answers.

Next I will address Curt Scott's technical complaints, please feel free to assemble them for me lest I do them from memory.
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  #432 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 07:26 AM
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This thread seems to be centered around the past, versus the present.


Some people feel Centerline is on a mission to defame the company, yet he was the only one who posted recently, that he could not find any "new" BBB complaints or new suits filed. ( I think it was him ; I just don't want to try to find it right now)


So, I need to ask again; If a company "might" be trying to correct some past issues, and "may" have done so, when do the car sites start giving them some slack??


Since this thread got revived in the last month or so, where are the "new" & "recent" buyers with new complaints? So far, all I have read about that is a hub had 2 bent studs, and I would think that it could have a reasonable explanation.

Just from my view as a complete outsider, I do think quite a few people just don't care for the styling or the fact that it does not have a frame that looks like a typical rod. The "hot rod/streetrod" hobby is pretty much fractured at this point in time with all the different trends.

Where are the new complaintants?
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  #433 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F&J
Where are the new complaintants?
Fair question ... but even more so ... where are it's defenders ???

Past and present owners ??

.
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  #434 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F&J
This thread seems to be centered around the past, versus the present.


Some people feel Centerline is on a mission to defame the company, yet he was the only one who posted recently, that he could not find any "new" BBB complaints or new suits filed. ( I think it was him ; I just don't want to try to find it right now)


So, I need to ask again; If a company "might" be trying to correct some past issues, and "may" have done so, when do the car sites start giving them some slack??


Since this thread got revived in the last month or so, where are the "new" & "recent" buyers with new complaints? So far, all I have read about that is a hub had 2 bent studs, and I would think that it could have a reasonable explanation.

Just from my view as a complete outsider, I do think quite a few people just don't care for the styling or the fact that it does not have a frame that looks like a typical rod. The "hot rod/streetrod" hobby is pretty much fractured at this point in time with all the different trends.

Where are the new complaintants?
My thoughts also..I'm not posting this in defense of anyone, there seem to be some "old" issues, and the new. The older issues have been somewhat resolved, the new issues seem to be a matter of opinion as to the quality of a product, some liking the quality, some saying no, overpriced, junk, etc. Personally, I haven't spoke to anyone that has built a kit car or fiberglass car, that didn't have issues or a complaint. Second, these cars aren't for a beginner. With that said, we have an experienced builder here willing to build a car, it would be interesting to document this build in an unbiased way. Or, has this been done? He said, she said could go on for page after page, this argument is getting old. Put up or shut up time for me...
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  #435 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2008, 08:39 AM
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I guess this would not be the time or place to say that I'm diversifying my cabinet shop to supplement my income by building an all wood, 34 coupe kit? I mean, it's going to be awesome!!! Walnut body, white Maple running boards and redwood fenders. Burl wood dash and real working balsa wood brake pads! All you need is a bottle of Elmers and a belt sander! Anyone can do it!!! I promise!!!
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