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  #496 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 09:12 AM
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If you think this forum purposely perpetuates any viewpoint above another, you've missed the point entirely. What's coming out in this thread is 500 posts of people in the hotrodding community making their points about a product. Nobody in this thread has been censored. No viewpoint has been disallowed.

This didn't start at hotrodders.com. Jon posted quotes from ALL OVER THE INTERNET complaining about streetbeast quality. So whatever "resolution" was made after CMC closed, quality issues were not resolved when streetbeasts started selling their product.

A kit car is an expensive item. The people who buy them are well within their rights to ask about others' experiences with them. And if there's a consistent quality problem with one kit over another, they're also well within their rights to say "well what's the deal with that, or where does that come from?" To be frank, if you'd solved the quality issues when the streetbeasts name was formed, you wouldn't have all the questions and probing about history that's clearly so unpleasant.

The attitude I'm getting from the above posts is that "hey we paid our debts to society and formed a new company, you guys just can't let the past go!" How can you say that, though, when the same quality complaints followed you into the new company? That's like getting stopped for speeding and doing a burnout in front of the cop as drive off, then crying when he pulls you over again.

K

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  #497 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 09:38 AM
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Why doesn't Streetbeast have a user forum on it's website? Fatory Five does and people discuss issues there all the time, good and bad. Total Performace also had one (they had to take it down do to excessive spam problems). Maybe SB should consider adding this feature, forums are a huge source of infomation and maybe that could help put some of the fear to rest.
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  #498 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 10:06 AM
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It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Every day I prove these cars can be built and every day I do my best to assist anyone that talks to me.
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  #499 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 11:27 AM
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Everyone take a step back, keep your eyes and ears open, and use this as a learning experience.

Obviously, this won't be the last time that company reps will come here to spin the facts. This a great chance for us to build our savvy.

Pay attention to Grandpa Cobra's posts, because we can educate ourselves by carefully analyzing his spin. Let the man speak, he's teaching us about spin.

Let's take a look at the court docs, and see what we can learn. Here are some important crux points:


1. FOUND GUILTY vs. PLED GUILTY and "WHAT THE ARTICLE DOESN'T SAY..."
In this post, Grandpa Cobra says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandpa Cobra
What this article doesn't say is that anyone in particular was found guilty
Now, wait a minute here. The sentencing document has three checkboxes at the top of it. One for "pleaded guilty", one for "pleaded nolo contendere" ("no contest"), and one for "was found guilty". The "pleaded guilty" box is checked, because the owner of StreetBeasts pled guilty to fraud. But the "was found guilty" box is not checked. So, Grandpa Cobra says that he wasn't FOUND guilty. Slick, huh? He also uses a common tactic, the old "What this source doesn't say...". True, the article in the Miami New Times that he's referencing doesn't exactly mention the guilty verdict. That's like saying: "What the article doesn't say is that John F. Kennedy was ever even assassinated." Technically, it's true: the article doesn't say that. Common spin tactic. Learn it.


2. FRAUD SCHEME
Now, let's look at the first court doc, the charges against Classic Motor Carriages, to which the owner PLED GUILTY.

The court said that CMC "knowingly and willfully" made "false and misleading statements, representations and promises" as to the "quality of the kit car purchased, the delivery time to the customer and the required assembly time". That confirms the scuttlebutt we've heard in the forums about them.

It also says that CMC defrauded customers in an attempt to induce people to mail them a $1,000 to $5,000 deposit. We've heard that one mentioned on the forums too. Also, it says that CMC defrauded people by advising them that the parts necessary to complete their kits were back-ordered, "when in fact, as defendant CMC well knew, the relevant automotive parts were not on back-ordered status".

So, the fraud was perpetrated by misrepresenting the quality of the kits, the delivery time, the assembly time, and the status of back-ordered parts. We've been hearing that, just wanted to clarify that it's in the court docs.

Now, Grandpa Cobra is so defeated, he tries to attack my character. He says that I led him into lies (actually, he led himself), I'll probably edit his posts (that's laughable), I'm attempting to dig up personal information on him (really, I know his full name, but haven't revealed it), etc. In fact, I looked at the court docs, and mentioned it in this post. That wasn't enough for him, and, in this post, he says that I still haven't "proved that anyone was ever busted for massive fraud". So, now I've posted the court docs. There's the proof.

JGK95 makes a point about first-person experience, and it's valid, because Streetbeast customers have the closest perspective. However, to propose that ONLY those who have built a Streetbeast car have the right to comment on their business practices (not sure if he's saying exactly that) is, IMO, incorrect. I have experience with how they're spinning this forum, so I think I can comment on it. The judge in the case (assumedly) was not a Streetbeast customer, but he analyzed the facts, and made a judgement. People who have seen their cars can comment on the aesthetics. Etc.


3. SILENCING CRITICISM
It's important to realize that Grandpa Cobra and StreetbeastOpts man are here to silence us. We all saw how they tried to spin us with the old "Streetbeast bought the molds from CMC" line, when, really, both companies were owned by the same guy. Imagine if you did a crappy restoration on a car, and then "sold" it to yourself, and then tried to tell people that you "bought it" from someone who did crappy work. Same deal. Hilarious.

Now, in this post, StreetbeastOptsMan threatens Centerline with a lawsuit. He says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetbeastOptsMan
I dont think you have enough equity in those cars you own to withstand a Civil Liable Lawsuit , if I were you Id pull the plug on this thread immediately and walk away, and remove the Wiki site from your main page , let people find it on their own
Interesting. He's threatening legal action, and he's threatening to do financial damage to him, if he doesn't stop shining the light on their actions.

Guess what? They tried the same thing with Stuart Rado, the consumer activist who exposed them. Check out this court document, page 7. Keep in mind that "GGL" refers to George G. Levin Industries, AKA Streetbeasts, AKA Classic Motor Carriages AKA Fiberfab/Auto Resolutions/Innovative Street Machines. Here's the quoted text:

Quote:
Originally Posted by USA v. GGL, Motion to Allow Victim/Witness Allocution
GGL's fraudulent scheme necessarily included as an intricate part the silencing of its critics, among whom was Rado. It did this by using the Courts to intimidate Rado into being silent and causing Rado to spend money he could not afford. It was GGL's intention (as one of GGL's attorneys said to Rado in the deposition of Rado in 1994) to make Rado's net worth go South. GGL and its attorneys forced Rado to incur these expenses and live day-to-day with a barrage of pleadings, depositions, and other legal maneuvers of GGL. He had to endure this even though he did nothing legally wrong, and even though GGL was in fact at the same time continuing to perpetrate its nationwide fraud. Rado was being put through this because Rado dared to contact some of GGL's victions and tell them that if they were injured by GGL they should contact the Florida Attorney General for help. What is even more despicable is that GGL knew that Rado was dying of cancer but continued to pursue him with motions and notices of trial and other pleadings, one such notice of hearing being served within days of brain surgery.
Same intimidation tactics: legal and financial ruin. Also, recall what StreetbeastOptsMan put into the wiki article? A link to the revision (before we edited it out) is here. He said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetbeastOptsMan in the wiki
I ordered a kit from streetbeast 5 years ago and have been paying on the layaway plan, last year I had about $2000 left to pay and was diagnosed with cancer, those saints at streetbeast forgave what I owed and shipped my dream car (34 Coupe) right away so I could build and drive it with my wife before I passed, God Bless Street Beast

It's interesting to see how StreetBeasts REALLY treats people who are dying of cancer.

Lots more to learn here, and I'm sure it will all come out in in the wiki article.

God Bless the saints at Streetbeasts!
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  #500 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrowhead
Why doesn't Streetbeast have a user forum on it's website? Factory Five does and people discuss issues there all the time, good and bad. Total Performance also had one (they had to take it down do to excessive spam problems). Maybe SB should consider adding this feature, forums are a huge source of infomation and maybe that could help put some of the fear to rest.
Good idea but I think a few (fill in name here) would slam them on it so bad no matter what that it would become useless.
They do have a decent website to answer general questions and it sounds like they'll walk you through detailed questions if you call or email.

I have no personal experience with them but I view their kit as a modified, and no different than buying an Outlaw and modifying it, if you want a true to original, buy someone else's. Why is a chopped top ok by all suppliers but molded in fenders by one supplier not? It's called personal taste and preference.
But it is nice to know our moderators are protecting us ignorant guys from ourselves.

My experience with Outlaw was not good, to be honest they turned me off from building a car many many years ago, talking about old history, they were so cocky to me that it shaped my car building for the last 25+ years. I deal only in Musclecars thanks to Outlaw. Less arrogance amungst that genre. Not as many, real, not real, arguments either. This is a hobby, it should be fun regardless of what you build.
I still love a 34 and may one day build one, but when I do I'll chose the supplier based on my fact finding and taste. Might even be an Outlaw.
Would I buy a SB? Not sure, I like their stuff but I'd probably want a more traditional style, and my build will be rather unique so wt would be an issue.

But I see nothing deceptive about SB, I see a company selling a product and being enthusiastic about it, and defending it, whether they should be doing that here is another matter. Jon has let them stay and fight it out. You can't change history, but you can't dwell on it either.
What some want them to say publicly would not be good for the growth of any company, let them build their product and keep people employed, you don't like them, we get it, jeez!
Close the thread as you'll never get the answer you want, mainly because it doesn't exist. Why? because you will not except any answer from them.

And as the saying goes, "There's not such thing as bad publicity"
Way to go guys.
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  #501 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 11:57 AM
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WOW.

I heard Deuce in here laughing a few times and had to come investigate what is so funny. We have separate computers. He has his desktop and I have a laptop. As a long time high school algebra/trigonometry teacher, I am seeing the same high school type actions I observed for 30 plus years. Past behavior and performance is the best indicator for future behavior and performance.

Deuce told me he felt sorry for the new guy who had just bought a Street beast kit with his father. He thought the experience of building a car with his father could be great and a life long remembrance but that he was afraid that quality the kit car they choose might really spoil the experience. He felt that they lacked the experience and the working space to properly do the kit and enjoy it.

As the wife of a long time hot rodder and a woman who has been to more street rod shows and events than most men, I feel that most rodders know that the kits require a good bit of work and dedication. The new fellow with the kit in question is in for a real eye opening experience. If he gets the kit finished and licensed for street use, then his opinions will carry a lot more creditability.

Mrs. Deuce
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  #502 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 12:13 PM
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Jon,

Allow me to disagree with you. I don't believe I inferred the above and if I have, I apologize.

If a person like centerline doesn't have the first hand business dealings with Street Beasts, then he is reduced to only offering an Opinion. To constantly badger and berate new members with this opinion repeatedly, is very, VERY unprofessional and unbecoming of a "moderator". Moderators are supposed to be impartial. You know what the old Grandmothers said..."If you have nothing nice to say, donít say it."

It was usually followed by a stare that would stand down the Devil hisself!

As a First hand participant in dealings with Street Beasts, they've been nothing but cordial and receptive to my questions and comments to date.

This has been my sole point this entire time.

I readily concede that wonderful people like Bad Rat, Ireland's Child, New Interiors, PowerRodsMikey (has worked with fiberglass 23+ years) and Deuce will know more than I will ever know and that's why I appreciate their knowledge and their input. I've learned a lot since coming aboard! It's that one guy that I've mentioned above who's ruining the experience for me.

Hope this puts things in proper perspective.

Appreciatively,

Jay K.

PS. Mrs. Deuce, Thank you for the kind words. You should be allowed to be a living Saint for putting up with your husband's hobby!
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  #503 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 428ho
Good idea but I think a few (fill in name here) would slam them on it so bad no matter what that it would become useless.
Actually a simple password system for Street Beast customers only would solve any spamming problems. Not difficult to do since they already have a similar system set up to "check on orders". So..... there is really no excuse for Street Beast not to have a forum for their customers to discuss "problems" or "solutions", except that they may be afraid there would be way more problems discussed than solutions.
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  #504 (permalink)  
Old 08-15-2008, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
......If a person like centerline doesn't have the first hand business dealings with Street Beasts, then he is reduced to only offering an Opinion.
You forgot to mention the fact that its an educated opinion. I've been following CMC/Street Beast's escapades for almost 20 years. I've toured their (CMC's) facility and personally knew a couple CMC employees. Don't tell me I don't know anything about the company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
......To constantly badger and berate new members with this opinion repeatedly, is very, VERY unprofessional and unbecoming of a "moderator".
Once again you can't argue the point without attacking me personally. I badgered you? Thats interesting. You are the one who continues to resort to name calling, and you are the one who is consistently berating ME personally. I have not called you names (other than novice and inexperienced) nor have I attacked you personally except to say that I thought your purchase was ill-advised. It would appear based on your recent posts that you are doing a good job learning "spin techniques" from your buddies at StreetBeast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
......Moderators are supposed to be impartial. You know what the old Grandmothers said..."If you have nothing nice to say, don�t say it."
And exactly where is THAT written in the rules?? Moderators are expected to administer the rules and deal with everyone equally, not be opinion-less. I'm so sorry that you don't understand this simple philosophy, but I'll chalk that up to youth and inexperience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
......As a First hand participant in dealings with Street Beasts, they've been nothing but cordial and receptive to my questions and comments to date.
Like I said earlier, I lived less than 5 minutes from CMC's facility when it was located just north of Ft. Lauderdale. The same one where Grampa Cobra said the "Speedster" was stolen from the roof. I toured the facility back then and what I saw was anything but impressive to say the least. What is really surprising is that they are using the same basic design even now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
......It's that one guy that I've mentioned above who's ruining the experience for me.
Why is that??? Have you run out of names to call me or something???? Only time will tell.

Last edited by Centerline; 08-15-2008 at 04:55 PM.
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  #505 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 01:04 AM
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After reading this entire thread, I have decided to forgo my plans on building a kit car(you can't trust anyone it seems), and do a body off restore on my own car. It's a complete 1973 Ford Grand Torino Sport, 351 4V factory Nascar 4 speed trans, with a 9 inch rear end.

I will also continue to work on Factory Fiberglass show cars, and solid metal HP Classics, along with any other vehicle that comes along.

I really had a life long dream of building a hotrod/kit car, and thought streetbeasts had a reasonable product. Thank you all for enlightening me on their supply/quality problems. Their responses are something to be acknowledged, as Jon has pointed out.

As for Jay K, Good luck to You and your Father in this build. There are so many people on this website that are willing to help, in any phase of this build, including myself when it comes to fine tuning. Just keep open minded, and let Centerline try to help.

Stephen
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  #506 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 08:08 AM
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It just seems to me that the Streetbeasts reps ( Optsman abd Grandpa Cobra) have missed a golden opportunity here to set things straight and help their companys reputation, instead thier spin has done nothing but hurt their company. The main thing in my mind is JGK95's recent purchase of a Streetbeast kit. He recieved the kit and has found that he has a defective hub. Streetbeasts could have used this forum to show the world how good their customer service was by replacing this hub no questions asked...but they did not. Instead Optsman say they will take care of it and then GrandapaCobra tells us that he has talked to JGK95 by phone and has told him something to try, but does not tell us what that was.. JGK95 tells us that he has taken a Dremel tool and enlarged the bolt holes in his wheels so he can get the wheel on the hub...and then says that he is going to over torque the lug nuts in an attempt to re-align the lug studs in the hub. Folks...if the wheel will not go on the hub without enlargeing the holes in the wheel something is wrong...either bent studs or the studs were pressed in the hub crooked or the hub holes were drilled crooked. An attempt to pull them into alignment by over tightening the lug nuts is really unaccepable because if it works you have either bent the studs into alignment or you have pulled the studs straight in the holes in the hub therefore distorting them. This it might work theory is not good at 75 mph when a wheel gets loose or even worse comes off. You can trick a lot of things on a car but you should not try to trick anything that has safety involved. Grandpa Cobra says that its not Streetbeasts fault because they did not make the hub ...that they buy them from a supplier. Well it is thier fault too because the hub was furnished in their kit. The hub should be replaced no questions asked and then Streetbeast can go to the supplier for re-embursement. If I was JGK95 I would expect a new replacement hub from Streetbeast and if they would not send me one I would go buy a new one from another source. So far niether one of the two guys from Streetbeasts have posted anything on this forum saying what they are going to do about this issue and JGK95 has not told us what they have told him either. So there it is...you can see the oportunity missed here to show all of us looking in how reputable etc. Streetbeast is and how they are trying to build a good image to the Hotrod world. Instead all we see is spin and deception. JGK95...I wish you the very best with your build.

Last edited by Henry Highrise; 08-16-2008 at 08:20 AM.
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  #507 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 08:34 AM
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The lack of words on the hub issue speaks MUCH louder than the tens of thousands of words in there posts in this thread!

Centerlines "acusations" may not be learned from personal experiance, but "experiance" non the less. He experianced it right here with us!

Poor quality kit....proof right here with the junk hub.

Poor customer service..PROOF right here with how it was handled.

They will be changing their name again, just watch!

Brian
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  #508 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 12:06 PM
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I called a painter friend of mine, all he does is street rods and custom cars/bikes..


He said he went to look at a fairly new streetbeast car , to give the guy a quote...He said he did not want to paint the car, the waves in the panels were that bad. The guy did not want to spend any money on bodywork, as he said he was sure that all it needed was a "little blocking". OOooooo-k.
He did say the doors lined up good though. He also said he has patched up a few Street beast bodies where the trunk openings had cracked on all 4 corners. 3/8 fiberglass didn't help there , did it?


So one more guy with no experience buying a kit from Streetbeast, but has valuable experience to share with those who might..


later, mikey
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
He also said he has patched up a few Street beast bodies where the trunk openings had cracked on all 4 corners. 3/8 fiberglass didn't help there , did it?
later, mikey
I know!!!!! I was not going to say no more....But I couldn't help this one...

Mikey... I know all about the patch work on a street beast.This is some of the holes in the car.(''SOME OF THE HOLES'')...
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  #510 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2008, 01:03 PM
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NEW INTERIORS - I can't see the pic.
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