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  #976 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 11:05 AM
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Listen guys, I think the beating of these cars IS over the line. The BUSINESS practices, that is more than "opinion", that is fact and we know right from wrong. Insert a business name, and an industry name in place of Streetbeast and Kit car and show it to anyone and they will agree, POOR BUSINESS PRACTICE.

But when it comes to the cars and the parts not innerchanging and poor design and what not, this is mostly opinion.

These are KIT CARS they are not "replicas". I have spent a far amount of time around kit cars, built one, went to shows, bought and studied the magazines, there isn't but a couple I would ever buy. None of them would he a "replica" of another car. The only ones I would have ever interested me are the "Sterlings" and that sort of thing. There is a company who makes Ford GT-40s and stuff like that are SUPER high quality basically EXACTLY as the original. They are SUPER high buck hundred grand sort of prices.

That being said, the SB is a KIT CAR and no different than one of those VW powered MGA's. They are JUNK compared to a quality streetrod. But they NOT a streetrod.

Don't start talking about how floors are attached and such, have you ever looked at how a T bucket fiberglass body is attached to the floor?

Listen, it is a "Fake" 34 Ford just as EVERY SINGLE fiberglass car is!! You want something built "right", buy a REAL vintage car.

Have you guys spent any time looking at fiberglass car components, repro frames, steel repro bodies and the like at GoodGuys events? There is some real GARBAGE out there for sale! I mean DANGEROUS, JUNK.

How many of you have tried installing repro parts, I would assume many of you, how did they fit? LIKE CRAP most of the time, that's how.

I watched the guys video with him talking about the cars, and I believe him. I understand what he is saying about the "expectation" of the owners of these cars, that they can be put together in a week with simple tools by an accountant with zero auto experiance. The "expectation" of a streetrodder would be that these cars are built like a Downs body on Duece Factory rails with all the popular suspention componants (sorry I don't know the hip names being I would never buy anything from them).

These cars don't match up with either of these expectations, it isn't the cars fault, it is the expectations of the streetrodder and the accountants that are off the mark!

If they are MARKETED as a "Streetrod" just the same as all other streetrod componants are sold, THAT is wrong, it is NOT a "streetrod" it is a KIT CAR.

But that is again, the business practices NOT the car.

The car is a KIT CAR, that is all it is, just like a Fiberfab MGA, it is not perfect.

Brian

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  #977 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
......I hope Centerline can Watch the video without falling out of his chair...LOL
To be fair I watched all of his videos on this build. What this did was reinforce the shabby, Mickey Mouse engineering that goes into these cars. It's kind of like an exercise in how hard can you make it to build a "kit car". And the owner is a real piece of work as well. Just another rod shop owner who owes his existence to the fact that Streetbeast produces the worst kit possible. It's pretty plain to see that if it wasn't for Streetbeast owners he wouldn't have a business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
I don't agree with this,If you grind the gel coat off then wipe the old glass with acetone the new glass will bind,I use this procedure all the time,with good results,,If the old glass has wax in it,It need's to be grind first then wiped with acetone,Then start glassing..
Yea, but he didn't grind the gel coat at all. I can't believe the floor is held to the body with one layer of chopped mat and resin.... And on this car it wasn't even glassed in properly. Unbelievable!
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  #978 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 11:44 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Ok, I get it, I'll watch the rest of the videos (My computer here at home is crap and I have to wait to watch it at work tomorrow).

But honestly, what other KIT CAR designs have you seen?

Brian
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  #979 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ffas23
Actually that little dinky photo of the CMC frame above doesn't tell the true story of it as it is one heavy duty frame. I happened to like the top area of the CMC frame front and back as it adds support to the firewall and back of the car in front of the trunk. Don't forget the Master Cylinder and Steering column is supported in front of the CMC frame this way. Not knocking the TCI frame but the only support I see you will get with this type of frame once the body is mounted is the support in whatever is used in the body you choose to use on the frame. Most of the other '34 Coupe body makers such as Outlaw use wood in their bodies.

Here is a quote by one of the body manufacturers recommended on this forum by some. Quote: Hand-laminated, one-piece constructed body. Complete with wood reinforcement. Wood consists of kiln-dried Poplar, D-select. Poplar is used because the expansion rate is the most compatible to fiberglass than any other wood.

Once the CMC/SB Body is placed on the frame it is surrounded by a metal cage mounted inside from roof to floor that you bolt in and then weld in as you build your '34 Coupe. Where the other manufacturers mount their doors to wood, CMC/SB doors are mounted to the CMC steel frame. More work for the builder but stronger in my opinion. To me I have to say I like this idea better for support all around the car. If I remember correctly the original '34 Ford used (OAK) wood many years ago. Below is a CMC/SB frame that shows a little more detail as the picture is larger then said previous photo above. What you don't see in both pictures as mentioned above is the Steel Cage that gets built inside once the body is set on the frame and aligned. Notice the steel supports for the running boards. You can actually stand on the CMC/SB running boards if one had to. The boxed support behind the front passenger side front tire is where the battery sits.



Bottom Line............Which design is the Accepted "STANDARD" in the Industry................A Chassis built with Quality, Adjustability, and Finesse....or one built to Blacksmith "Standards".......If you don't understand that.......there's no sense in going any further........Like the Used Car Salesmen say........There's an "***" for every Seat.....Just my $.02



Ken
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  #980 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 01:14 PM
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Man this is sick that find myself defending these guys, but we are now talking about "quality" and ascetics which are OPINION and nothing more.

Look at "rat rods" the shows are full of them that are a engineering and ascetic nightmare!

These KIT CARS are designed more like a hot tub or camper shell, to get a job done not look like a work of art under the "shell".


That frame is a hundred miles from the original 34 frame, and a hundred miles from something most of us would build from scratch. But it will get the job done if the welds are quality, if the suspension components are mounted correctly with correct geometry. If those two factors are correct, under the "hot tub" body no one will ever know the difference.

Man, I will bet a dollar that if we were to tear apart every streetrod at a Goodguys event we would find a few things on every one of them that look as crude as this SB frame.

Hell, I know for a fact of a big name builder in the area that built a very famous top winning car that I have the opportunity to see it with the interior panels removed. It didn't look much better than that SB I'll tell you that! It was CRUDE with a bare metal rusting structure in the body!

Come on now, is the car safe? Does it provide an enjoyable day for the owner to cruise around in it on a Sunday afternoon with the grand kids or kids?

And as far as a "Standard of the industry", WHAT industry?? In the KIT CAR industry that IS a standard!

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 12-14-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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  #981 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Man this is sick that find myself defending these guys, but we are now talking about "quality" and ascetics which are OPINION and nothing more.................

..................Come on now, is the car safe? Does it provide an enjoyable day for the owner to cruise around in it on a Sunday afternoon with the grand kids or kids?

Brian
Ascetics of the frame and driving around on a Sunday afternoon isn't the problem. The problem is that these "kits" are marketed to novice builders as "easy to build" by the sales representatives. They are ANYTHING BUT EASY TO BUILD!!!!! They have structural engineering problems with the way the body is mounted to the frame and several other PROBLEMS. Can a pro builder make one of these cars nice? Sure. Can your average shadetree do a good job? Yes with enough time and re-engineering. Can a novice build this car successfully? I think the existence of places like Southwest Rod and Custom attest to the fact that a novice can't build this "kit" without a lot of help. As I said before Streetbeast "kits" bring a new meaning to how to design a kit to be complicated and HARD TO BUILD.

Defend them all you wan't but there is no defense against a BAD DESIGN.
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  #982 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 01:53 PM
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Bear in mind that the fraud charges leveraged against CMC specifically mentioned their fraudulent representation of the "required assembly time" and "quality of the kit car". That could well be the source of the builders "expectations".

From the court document PDF:

Quote:
It was the purpose and object of the scheme and artifice for defendant CMC to obtain money from customers throughout the United States for the purchase of vintage kit car replicas by causing employees under its supervision to knowingly and willfully make false and misleading statements, representations and promises and by causing such employees to knowingly and willfully conceal and omit material facts as to the quality of the kit car purchased, the delivery time to the customer and the required assembly time.

The Known issues with ALL kit cars section of the Streetbeasts wiki article addresses the reality of building all kit cars, being sure not to point a finger only at Streetbeasts. It was Centerline who added that section, 2 days after I started the wiki article, and he was careful to point out that many of these issues are present in all kit cars, not just Streetbeasts.

MARTINSR makes a good point about the distinction between the terms "street rod", "kit car", and "replica". However, note the varied wording on Streetbeasts.com. They don't say "replica" -- they say "replicar" (in fact, they say "replicar" with a trademark symbol following it). They also make liberal use of the term "street rod". The terms are jumbled together and used interchangeably, such that they lose their distinct definitions.

Ease of construction and accuracy of appearance are minor side issues to me.

Streetbeasts's attack on our free speech, and their attempt to silence us with a frivolous lawsuit, is the most disgusting thing that any company has ever done to this website.
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  #983 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS
I don't agree with this,If you grind the gel coat off then wipe the old glass with acetone the new glass will bind,I use this procedure all the time,with good results,,If the old glass has wax in it,It need's to be grind first then wiped with acetone,Then start glassing..
Alls I can say is the hundreds of boat repairs I did needed epoxy to repair polyester, new polyester would not properly stick to well cured polyester. I'm surprised to find a different story in the car repair arena. (I say repair because that is what it essentially is in this case.)

This is a case of you learn something new every day!

Last edited by bluesman2333; 12-14-2008 at 02:44 PM.
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  #984 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman2333
Alls I can say is the hundreds of boat repairs I did needed epoxy to repair polyester, new polyester would not properly stick to well cured polyester. I'm surprised to find a different story in the car repair arena. (I say repair because that is what it essentially is in this case.)

This is a case of you learn something new every day!
Not trying to get into a p**** contest here.... But I have no problem doing it that way.....Work's every time...

Last edited by NEW INTERIORS; 12-14-2008 at 03:41 PM.
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  #985 (permalink)  
Old 12-14-2008, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman2333
Alls I can say is the hundreds of boat repairs I did needed epoxy to repair polyester, new polyester would not properly stick to well cured polyester. I'm surprised to find a different story in the car repair arena. (I say repair because that is what it essentially is in this case.)

This is a case of you learn something new every day!
I have to agree that Polyester resin does not always stick to polyester resin that has been cured. I've had cases where it delaminated when making small parts for other projects. The biggest advantage of using polyester is that is sands easier than epoxy, at least in my experience.

As shown in the video using one layer of mat with polyester resin over cured gel coat is a recipe for disaster IMHO. That was a critical joint (floor to body) and relying on one thin strip of chopped mat installed incorrectly is a BIG safety issue in my book.
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  #986 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2008, 01:40 AM
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  #987 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2008, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffas23
Again I have to disagree with some members here. Based on my own experience with the building of the car. I feel my car truly is a StreetRod although it was sold as a kit.
I mean no disrespect it may not sound like it to you but I am supporting you and your car. What is a "kit car"? You have a very good point there, many "kit car" that you see for sale marketed AS A kit car in magazines such as "KITCAR" are nothing more than a body and frame and miles from a "Kit". While you can buy a repro 32 Ford from many Street rod vendors with everything but the motor and trans and they are called "Street rods". So yes, there is a HUGE gray area. Hell Citroen was selling their CV3 in America, a completely factory manufactured car that could be bought just about anywhere in the world and drive it off the dealers lot. But here in America it was sold as a "Kit car" partially assembled because it didn't make the safety standards of a new car here!

So a "kit car" can mean different things to different people.

Your car is an "outcast" in the street rod world by design and marketing, though unfairly so my most standards as you point out. YOU Build this car no unlike anyone would buy any replica Ford body and build it using all repro and rod parts.

When the SB is built sooooooooo unorthodox like the one piece body and the frame that bares no resemblence what so ever to an original Ford frame, when not one single part on the car would be innerchanged with the same part on any original OR other replica cars that pretty much makes it a "kit car" in my book. The only reason you were unable to buy the COMPLETE kit and bolt it together in your garage is the poor business practices of the SB! Their GOAL (well sort of because it really isn't that hard to pull off) is to supply a COMPLETE kit to the home builder. At least that is what they advertise! That is the product represented in all their literature!

They are apparently simply to lame to pull off a "real" kit car so they end up selling a "street rod" by default.

Brian
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  #988 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2008, 09:07 AM
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  #989 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2008, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffas23
I just want to mention here that the CMC frame accepts Mustang II front suspension and rack and pinion and a original Ford Rearend just like plenty of the other Street Rod frames presently sold today. Plenty have gone this way and don't built their Street Rods in the traditional way with the old style suspension an original '33-'34 Ford would have. I would guess maybe a Outlaw body siting on a frame that accepts the Mustang II suspension would disqualify that kind of a build not to be a so called Street Rod since the components are not of the original design of a '33-'34 Ford. How else should I look at it based on what you are trying to say here about my car and the body and frame CMC produced for their '34?
The Outlaw, Wescott, Redneck and my Gibbon 34 use a frame that is built to original 33-34 Ford specs. You can actually take an original 33-34 Ford steel body and mount it (with all holes lining up) to a reproduction frame. You cannot do that with a SB frame or body. As far as original Mustang II suspension pieces bolting up to the frame, who want's original Mustang II suspension components . All the other true to design reproduction frames either use Mustang II geometry specialty built tubular A arms or they use a drop front axle similar to the original. I believe one of Brian's points was that the SB frame cannot be used with any other body than an SB body.

Vince
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  #990 (permalink)  
Old 12-15-2008, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffas23

I mean how do you really define a kit car?
Street Beast even markets their stuff as a " KIT CAR " ... so who are we to argue ?

ffast23 ... your Street Beast turned out nice. It could be the nicest Street Beast built. But the fact remains ... when any half knowledgeable rodder sees it ... it is still a Street Beast. While your Street Beast and the coupe below share the same color RED ... other than that ... because they look NOTHING ALIKE



You bought a KIT, hung tough and then paid for some professional help and finally finished the Beast. It turned out nice ... you and your Beast are the exception. and are to be congratulated. I am GLAD you really like your Beast ... because the money you spent getting it to where it is .... can never be regained because of the poor resale of even a NICE Street Beast.

No one here said that they cannot be eventually built ... with enough money, time and determination just that most folks have so much trouble they they quit ... or end up with a Beast way less as nice as yours.

Just my nickel ...

I am just going back to watching this SOAP OPERA


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