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  #1156 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR

Number 512.1 is a S/B. I don't care enough to spend the time looking thru the others being my computer is so slow. But there you are, a list of cars that have went thru B/J.

Brian
Number 512.1 is NOT a SB car, it says it's an all steel Ford.
512.1

Vince

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  #1157 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 OLDROD
Jay what is the link to the wiring. I am about ready to start on a 37 and I will be putting the fuse block and sending unit for the doors,locks ect. in the trunk and have not done that before. Yes i have wired several with the fuse block under the dash. Good luck on the rest of your car.

later OLDROD
Great to hear Old rod!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjTBWzayO-4 //Summarizes stance on building these cars

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miW2tqUr6iY //Begins the wiring procedure from start to finish. This is the video that you have to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUoOi0SYQoQ //This is for wiring up the steering column.

Give these a viewing and you'll really enjoy learning from this guy as he takes his time in a step by step effort.

Good luck!

Jay K.
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  #1158 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 06:28 PM
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Swrnc

SWRNC has great videos, been to his shop, nice guy. I will get my pics up when Jon gets my journal working. I look forward to getting my rolling chassis complete. Next step is to get a axle cut down so i can fit my wheel/tire combo under the fenders. Going to go with a 350 and a T5 5 speed.
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  #1159 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J4strack
SWRNC has great videos, been to his shop, nice guy. I will get my pics up when Jon gets my journal working. I look forward to getting my rolling chassis complete. Next step is to get a axle cut down so i can fit my wheel/tire combo under the fenders. Going to go with a 350 and a T5 5 speed.
Funny, I had the same problem with getting my journal working. Maybe it's a StreetBeasts thing that our journals don't work?

More importantly, it's good to see that you've also used Pete's videos to assist you in your build. If you should talk to him again, tell him THANKS! for posting those videos!

Apparently, I didn't know that the rear axle has to be cut down to fit under the fenders. We purchased our frame with both the Ford 9" already on the frame and a Mustange II IFS in front.

Good luck and keep the info coming!

Jay K.
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  #1160 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 07:19 PM
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js4track-I got a PM from Jon and he said he was fixing up your journal. you should see something from him soon. He said that about 5% of guys who register to set up a journal have trouble...I had to have him set mine up as well.
Just so you all know that there are alot of folks who try to be objective here, this is the text of the PM I told you I'd send him, from your post in the site suggestions forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
Please help this guy with his project journal

project journal

He is one of the new members with a SB car, and he wants to start a project journal. But he can't get his login straightened out. (has anyone ever been able to get a journal registration by themselves?)

He has been asking regular questions in the forums and not being a jerk when people cut him down for buying a SB kit. I think it would be good to set him up, before folks think we are having a negative bias towards anything to do with SB owners.
Later, mikey
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  #1161 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 09:27 PM
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I'm sorry Mike.

I too had the problems with getting the journal configured and after several pm's to get this resolved it never was. I thought it was due to the bias against StreetBeast cars.

Jay K.

ps. I can Man up when I'm wrong, and Stand up when I'm right.
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  #1162 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 10:02 PM
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There are many here who have no bias against folks who buy a streetbeast kit, after weighing all of the pros and cons of their purchase.

I am not at all fond of the company's offerings, having experience with their's as well as many other companies products, but if you have different priorities, that's ok. ( I have friends with big loudmouthed hefers for wives too..if that's what makes em happy...I'm just glad I don't have to go home to em )

Jon is real busy these days, it's springtime in the mountains, and he's probably being chased around by all those wild mountain women trying to shake off the cabin fever...But I'll send him a PM anyway for you.
It took him only a few days to get working on J4stracks journal, check the thread I linked to above.

Later, mikey
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  #1163 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 10:23 PM
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glass vs. steel rust

Gosh! Its going to rain, I'd better get my glass car inside so it doesn't RUST! Get real, if you can! TJN PS I have BOTH glass and steel cars
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  #1164 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 10:32 PM
tjn tjn is offline
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glass

[QUOTE=powerrodsmike][QUOTE=pepi]
The metal cars have very defined lines. curves and corners are tight, bent/formed metal .. glass can not duplicate that.. I am not knocking the glass crowd, but the metal guys cars are worth more, with a qualifier both built the same except for the body .

Quote:

You have no clue of what you say. Fiberglass can be molded to be every bit as defined as steel, it only requires attention. As far as the opening of the doors telling the tale, that is a misconception on your part as well. The bodies WE built had extra design work done to the molds, specifically to appear as well defined as steel, and special interface preparation procedures as well as dedicated fixturing to keep all inner/outer panel interface edges the same dimension as it's steel counterpart.
The insides of the window openings had extra steps taken so you did not see a hollow opening with rough edges, and it was easy to mistake our bodies for steel.
As the shop forman who also worked many national shows in the capacity of factory rep, I can not count how many people asked if our bodies were steel.

I am more familiar with the shortcomings of glass bodies that most companies fail to address than you could ever imagine.

Most glass companies refuse to take the extra time it takes to build a quality car body.

That car you reference has no "side curtains". Side curtains are optional acessories for roadsters and touring cars for inclement weather.
If you are referring to the hood top and sides on the blue and white 34 Ford replica in Rob's post , they are steel, not fiberglass. I should know, I performed a great deal of the work to complete that car at my shop. It was actually the last 34 coupe body I built when I worked at Poli-Form in a full time capacity, delivered December, 1997.

The 34 coupe body is not being produced by Poli-Form at this time, due to the inability to find people skilled enough to produce them on a production basis. We had standards that most employees could not or would not meet.

As far as resale value goes, you are correct in most instances, only because a great many companies building 'glass cars have given most all of them a bad reputation, which you yourself propagate, obviously having no experience with a good one.

Later, mikey
GOSH! Chevy needs to quit building the Vette! TJN
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  #1165 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 10:40 PM
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tjn, Your sarcastic responses are not appreciated, and could lead to banishment from this forum. Take this as a warning please, as I am not a threat to your status on here.

Stephen
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  #1166 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2009, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjn


GOSH! Chevy needs to quit building the Vette! TJN
Corvettes are not a good comparison to anything we are talking about here.

From what I remember, and depending on the year, 'Vettes are made with filled resin and glass injected into 2 piece matched molds,(smc) or prepreg glass and press molds. The factory stopped using the open molding process after the first few years because of the amount of time it took to make the parts, and the factory could not get the panels to line up ....

Shine would be able to confirm or correct me on that. I don't work on too many corvettes...boats either...by my own choice, dumb or not.


Body panels such as door skins, fenders, etc built using open molded parts take anywhere from 1/2 man hours to an hour +, depending on the complexity...Part consistancy from part to part also suffers. Proper post curing in open molds can take 8 hours or more, depending on the resin and ambient temp..

Most all of the companies selling fiberglass cars use the older open molded process, some are hand laid, some are built applying the glass and resin with a chopper gun. There are advantages and disadvantages to both application methods, all quality characteristics are dependent on the technician applying the material into the mold, and the materials used. Mold quality and demolding times contribute to quality as well as the actual construction of the secondary reinforcing structure. Fiberglass matt is made with a chopper gun, so is prepreg matt. Wood is not a good reinforcement, it absorbs moisture and swells, making it pull loose from the body skin, unless special glues and bondline shapes and fillets are used in it's bonding. Steel can be bonded with a bedding compound, then laminated over, or epoxied.

SMC and prepreg closed molds can cycle parts every few minutes. There is no limit to the shapes produced by any of the molding methods, although 3 dimensional mounting bosses and sharper radiuses are possible to make more quickly with 2 peice molds and resin injection molds..There are many other methods to create fiberglass panels such as vacuum bagging, and combinations of resin injection using various compounded filled resins, there are many materials to choose from.

Fiberglass is a material that is easily abused by folks ...But a properly laminated, high glass content panel using high quality materials has 20 times the flexural strength of steel, and tensile strengths of up to 30000 psi, mild steel has typically about 60000 psi tensile strength. Adding a steel reinforcement to the glass panel to take up localized stress, can make a structure that is stronger than steel.

Although very few kit car manufacturers use it, Carbon fiber and epoxy panels exceed both the tensile strength and flexural strength of steel by themselves. Epoxy does not shrink near as much as polyester or vinyl ester resins, and does not prestress the fiber as it shrinks.

Use of the proper materials and application techniques makes 'glass parts that do not move around, crack from stress, transfer the glass pattern through to the surface, or get wavy in the sun. Unfortunately the majority of glass car manufacturers I know of don't spend the extra dime on materials or labor to make that happen.


Did you ever wonder why cheap bodies are gelcoated white instead of black? Black shows all the imperfections, and white is the cheapest gelcoat color to boot. White also does not absorb the heat that will make cheap resin and resin rich laminates with air pockets from poor roll out techniques move around.

I know that very few people will change their minds about fiberglass as a viable automotive construction material after they read this, I don't care if they want to remain bigoted.

As proof that fiberglass can be used in applications previously unheard of by many here, I once made a set of steel reinforced fiberglass press dies to make add on steel tank extensions for custom harleys..It's been 3 years since I made them, the guy who contracted me to make them has made almost 1000 parts using those dies. The proof parts (first article) were made out of .045" steel, the production parts are .035" deep draw steel... same stuff as 20's and 30's car bodies.

Later, mikey
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  #1167 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 01:19 AM
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Here are some pics of an "as molded" fiberglass fender for a custom harley I made 13 years ago. No polishing, bodywork or painting was ever done post molding. It has hung around my shop all this time, the other fender is still on the bike. I took the pics tonight, just for this thread.
Here is the license plate recess for modified Arlen Ness frame mated to a Pro 1 taillight. The outside corner radiuses are all .065" and the recess is 3/4" deep.
No detail at all.



It was made with a chopper gun using polyester resin and e glass..not the lowest grade stuff, but close. There is some transfer, but no mottling or waves.


Here is a pic of the inside, note the absence of excess resin, a sign of a good layup technique, and the consistancy of thickness at the edges, another sign of quality.




Come to your own conclusion about this pic. There is no make believe stuff going on here. No hidden supports, no photoshop, no cracks, no structural failures at all. I'm standing on the open side, it flexed, but sprang right back.
Do that with a .035" thick steel car fender.
The part is between .170" and .190" thick, I weigh 256#.



I just gave that fender some soul.

I hope the point of this demonstration is grasped by those who would just hear the word "fiberglass" and immediately call it junk without understanding the difference between good and bad suppliers.. I know there are going to be a hopeless few that refuse to see or understand..., it's their loss, not mine..

Later, mikey
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  #1168 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 02:59 AM
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Ok so you may think my last demonstration was lame and ineffective. So I made one up that is a little bit more scientific.
The test will compare the 2 materials for flexability, and yeild point. It will also show that pound for pound, the fiberglass panel is stronger in flex and yeild points than steel..

2 pieces of material, one fiberglass, one steel. Both are 10" long and 1 1/4 wide.

Steel is .050 thick standard mild steel.
Fiberglass test coupon made with a chopper gun of polyester resin and chopped gun roving is of varied thickness, minimum .170" no more than .240" thick, it is about 6 years old.

Steel test coupon weighs 3 oz
Fiberglass test coupon weighs 2.5 oz, both weighed on the same balance beam postal scale, weighed 2 times to make sure of the weight.

Test coupons before test.



The test force measurement equipment is 2 Snap -On dial type inch pound torque wrenches. One is 0-30 inlbs, the other is 0-300 in lbs. a torque adapter to transfer force to the test coupon was made from a socket and length of steel tube, slotted to fit the panels.
A 1" Oldak dial indicator, mag base and a Wilton vise.


The test procedure "A" is to clamp one end of the material in the vise and measure the force required to bend the material 1", using the dial indicator to measure distance, and the torque wrench equipped with an adapter to measure force.. All proportions remained the same for both materials, the coupons were inserted in the vise 1", and the dial indicator was located 3/4 from the end of the test coupon. The torque adapter was placed as far out on the end of the test part as to remain in contact throughout the test.

Fiberglass test coupon set up in test apparatus.


The forces were as follows,
Fiberglass required 17 in lbs to deflect 1"
Steel required 8 in lbs to deflect 1"
I should mention that the fiberglass deflected .1" just from the spring pressure in the dial indicator, so the indicator was zeroed at the point of max, deflection so as not to give the fiberglass any advantage in the test..
The steel coupon deflected .25" just from the spring in the indicator.
Upon release of the force, the fiberglass returned to it's original position, the steel did not return all the way, it was .260" shy of straight.

Fiberglass coupon with 17 in lbs of force applied.


The second test is to measure the force required to permenantly deform the material. (yeild point)

The test procedure is the same, but with greater force.
The force on the fiberglass was exerted until cracking sounds were heard, and stress delamination streaks were visible.
The force required to attain those conditions was 100 in lbs
The fiberglass returned to it's original position after the force was removed.

Fiberglass coupon with 100 in lbs applied force.

Steel took 17 in lbs to permenantly deform.. It maintained the same resistance to bending throughout approximatly 90* of bend. It did not return to it's original shape.

Steel with 17 in lbs of force applied, it never showed any resistance greater than 17 in lbs of force before it bent.




I will gladly set up this same test for anyone who wants to come by, and they can verify the results. Anyone here with any amount of mechanical ability can repeat the same test themselves.

See the rest of the pics below.
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  #1169 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 03:03 AM
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I could not fit all the pics in

Pic of steel after removal of 17 in lbs of force.


Test coupons after test.


Steel does have greater tensile strength, so use of steel along with fiberglass around structural mounting points is necessary to prevent pull through of fasteners. Once you drill a hole through fiberglass, the laminate frays and delaminates around the hole, and it creates a stress riser. Steel has it all over fiberglass in this respect. Certain shapes are also stress risers in a panel, and extra reinforcement is needed, either steel of glass. An example of the extra reinforcement is in the bead edge of a 32 or 33-34 car front fender...Ford rolled a wire into this edge to counter the breakage we all see right at the fender brace on so many of these cars...At Poli-Form we laminated an extra 200 strands of continous filament gun roving in this edge...and never had a crack.
So a quality fiberglass car body will have both, a steel skeleton with hard points for components to bolt through, and a fiberglass skin, which is stiff and resilient .

IIRC, Corvettes are glass skins bonded to steel inner panels ( doors inner panels IIRC), and bonded to a steel "birdcage" structure to support the body in the critical areas.

I should also mention that just because a part is made with a choppergun does not make it automatically a bad part. Chopped parts are typically stiffer than the same weight part made with a hand layup, if both laminations are made by competent guys. The reason is that properly rolled out chopped parts have very very small air bubbles, too small to pop through the gelcoat and cause air bubbles under your paint, but there are enough of them to increase the thickness without adding to the weight of the part.

I hope at least some of ya'll learned something here.
Later, mikey
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  #1170 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerrodsmike
I could not fit all the pics in


I hope at least some of ya'll learned something here.
Later, mikey

Mikey - great test and a great write up of the conclusions . And you are right that this will not change anyones mind, but at least it gives some sanity over the steel vs. 'glass components, i.e. my Wescott front fenders, which I literally bounced around before finishing them, vs the steel rears that were "tender". (But with that said, do I now have to like the way a SB looks? ?? )

Dave W

(It appears that you also had a late night - )
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