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  #1171 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
More importantly, it's good to see that you've also used Pete's videos to assist you in your build. If you should talk to him again, tell him THANKS! for posting those videos!
Good luck and keep the info coming!
Jay K.
Those are indeed very good videos and should go a long way to helping anyone not familiar with building a glass car. It is advisable however IMHO to discourage the use of crimp connectors when doing wiring. Soldered and heat shrink connections are far superior to crimp connections.

Vince

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  #1172 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 302 Z28
Those are indeed very good videos and should go a long way to helping anyone not familiar with building a glass car. It is advisable however IMHO to discourage the use of crimp connectors when doing wiring. Soldered and heat shrink connections are far superior to crimp connections.

Vince

Vince,

But what about rust? Is that a concern? Additionally, don't a lot of the pro builders use crimpers? Heck, Joe Rizzo in last month's issue of Street Rodder Magazine even pimped crimpers when he was discussing how to set up some Dolphin gauges for the street rod that his wife is building.

Your thoughts?

Jay K.
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  #1173 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
Vince,

But what about rust? Is that a concern? Additionally, don't a lot of the pro builders use crimpers? Heck, Joe Rizzo in last month's issue of Street Rodder Magazine even pimped crimpers when he was discussing how to set up some Dolphin gauges for the street rod that his wife is building.

Your thoughts?

Jay K.
I am not a "pro" builder but I have always preferred solder and heat shrink over crimping. The only time I ever crimp is when splicing into a circuit and space won't allow solder and shrink tubing. Solder and copper wire won't rust so no worries there. Most of the connectors are (I believe) zinc coated and hold up well. The only concern I have ever had with rust is when connecting a ground to frame, engine, etc. Then I use a star washer for better contact.

PS: I really want to follow your build and would request that you start a seperate thread (different than a journal) with your progress. That way we won't have to sort through all the comments this thread generates.

Thanks
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  #1174 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
Mikey - great test and a great write up of the conclusions . And you are right that this will not change anyones mind, but at least it gives some sanity over the steel vs. 'glass components, i.e. my Wescott front fenders, which I literally bounced around before finishing them, vs the steel rears that were "tender". (But with that said, do I now have to like the way a SB looks? ?? )

Dave W

(It appears that you also had a late night - )
Well you know us guys who just look stuff up in books, and have no experience with anything except for the oil drainplugs I see on the cars I service. Party party

Wescotts uses isopthalic polyester resin, a resin with slightly different mechanical properties than the orthophtalic resin most companies use. It shrinks slightly less, is more flexible and can withstand higher heat than the ortho. They also hand lay their parts. The Wescotts parts are more flexible than the ones we made at Poliform. We liked the extra rigidity in our parts, and the ability to spray the material into some of the the complex shapes that cars like the 34 had. If a guy is good with the gun, he (or she), can control the thickness much better with a chopper gun than by cutting flat material and stretching or peicing it into those shapes. Then all you have to do is find guys who can roll it out properly.

Good gun operators are far and few between. It's easier to find guys who can cut matt to a pattern, brush resin on,and roll out hand laid parts, than guys who can properly spray and roll out chopped parts. That is one big reason chopper gun parts have a bad name. I could compare it to spraying paint on a car, which we all know is an art and a science, but I won't.

No Dave, I don't expect anyone to start liking anything about streetbeast. The examples of their glasswork, steel reinforcement, or interpretation of shapes that I have seen don't impress me. I have seen examples of functional SB cars, after alot of work by the owner or builder. (as is evidenced here in this thread and elsewhere, they are not always the same... )

The main point to my demonstration was directed at those who clearly have no understanding about 'glass parts, and lump them all in one dumpster. Also to show that I just don't talk about these things, but work with them.

There are other mechanical properties of glass that have it all over steel as well, impact absorbtion is one, how many crash helmets are made from steel?

Later, mikey
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  #1175 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
Vince,

But what about rust? Is that a concern? Additionally, don't a lot of the pro builders use crimpers? Heck, Joe Rizzo in last month's issue of Street Rodder Magazine even pimped crimpers when he was discussing how to set up some Dolphin gauges for the street rod that his wife is building.

Your thoughts?

Jay K.
you may see it in the magazine, but that don't mean that's all he does... he may use crimpers in the magazine because he has a targeted tutorial of how to install gauges for someone who can't solder. Crimpers can be ok in certain climates, but any humidity and you can have corrosion and bad connections over time...
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  #1176 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
you may see it in the magazine, but that don't mean that's all he does... he may use crimpers in the magazine because he has a targeted tutorial of how to install gauges for someone who can't solder. Crimpers can be ok in certain climates, but any humidity and you can have corrosion and bad connections over time...
I took that into consideration when I thought about his target audience. However, Jim then lobs in the line (or something to the equivalent)

"If its good enough for the Big 3, it's good enough for me."

So which way to go? I think soldiering is the way to go and the above posts convinced me to learn.
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  #1177 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heyjude076
I am not a "pro" builder but I have always preferred solder and heat shrink over crimping. The only time I ever crimp is when splicing into a circuit and space won't allow solder and shrink tubing. Solder and copper wire won't rust so no worries there. Most of the connectors are (I believe) zinc coated and hold up well. The only concern I have ever had with rust is when connecting a ground to frame, engine, etc. Then I use a star washer for better contact.

PS: I really want to follow your build and would request that you start a seperate thread (different than a journal) with your progress. That way we won't have to sort through all the comments this thread generates.

Thanks
I used to be a solder and shrink tube freak, but I found(in a trophy truck) the soldered connection was brittle, this caused the wire to break. The shrink tube stretched enough for it to separate the soldered connection, and wire.

I have since found a supplier that sells crimp connector's, with water, and corrosion sealer, inside of the shrink tube ends. These are not cheap, by any means, but damage to my reputation is more costly.

Stephen
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  #1178 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 11:18 AM
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Those are good ones, My Matco guy sells them..but I know there are a bunch of other good suppliers...some you can use a small butane torch to do the entire operation, they are presoldered, you heat solder and shrink the insulation all in one step.., they are $$$....

I use a dimpled crimp connector on interior wiring, and sometimes shrink tube over it, depending on what it is and solder and shrinktube on exterior stuff. Some crimp end connectors such as stud eyelets and spades for headlights get lightly crimped, then soldered. No inline butt connectors if I can help it, use a continous wire from terminal to terminal. Pull test each one.

Using the proper tool for the crimp is very important.

Later, mikey
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  #1179 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 11:46 AM
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Mike or Stephen,

Can either of you post or pm me with the name of the parts vendor that sells those materials?

Jay K.
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  #1180 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 12:07 PM
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Sure connect sealed butt splices
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/747/=223t45

Same thing in quick connect connectors
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/745/=223u5i

spade connects
http://www.mcmaster.com/#spade-connectors/=223w3u

Ring terminals
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/740/=223wsx

Scroll around on the linked pages and look for the sure connect sealed connectors. Those are the ones that solder and shrink in one step. A heat gun will do the job too, they have a 275 F melting point.

Click on the arrows beside the page number (it's in the bar at the top of the page), on the mcmaster carr site and you can browse through the catalog...it's about 3600 pages of cool stuff you probably never knew even existed.

I'm sure there are other , better suppliers, cheaper too, I like Mc Master Carr because they are quick to ship, and the quality is always top notch.

Later, mikey
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  #1181 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
I took that into consideration when I thought about his target audience. However, Jim then lobs in the line (or something to the equivalent)

"If its good enough for the Big 3, it's good enough for me."

So which way to go? I think soldiering is the way to go and the above posts convinced me to learn.
There are lots of good crimp connectors available - but many are the very well discussed Chinese junk that is not suited for major wiring. I've tried to use only quality USA made wiring components for my car. Many have been Home Depot Gardner Bender US made, but the most are NAPA's Balkamp (Federal Mogul) along with their wire where I've had to add circuits to my American Autowire panel and hookup wire.

Using a crimper, be aware that there are two basic types - one for insulated lugs and one for the uninsulated. There are also some premium crimpers that will put OEM kind of crimp on your connector, but very expensive.

If I have a long run, it's solder with marine grade shrink tubing which is much better then the regular stuff in that it totally seals the joint and is water resistant. This marine grade shrink tubing is (usually) the flat black rather then the glossy version - and, of course more expensive .

What Jim Rizzo said, and I did read that (as well as what Louie Mayall said in Street Scene) about crimped connections and he is wrong!! OEMs do not use a manual crimp, but a mechanical one that is repeatable over millions of connections per year and is checked regularly for quality of crimp. They crimp to the insulation then to the actual conductor - you can't do this easily with your $15 tool. You can make some crimps on #16 then go to #12 you will find that the crimp failure rate escalates with the heavier wire as your ability to compress the connector barrel is not the same - the crimping tool is only 7-8 inches long and you can only squeeze just so much.

I have used a very few butt connectors, but that's usually to fix a screw up and some place where I couldn't solder the joint. It too is inside of shrink tubing if at all possible.

First of all, get a good brand wiring kit, then follow their method. Most will supply a few connectors, but never enough. I like the American Autowire system - they gave me great directions and schematics, lots of wire, but not enough connectors though they did a great job with my VDO gauge connections. There are other 'kits/modules' that other folks prefer, and most are very good as well.

'Nuff said for now

Dave W
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  #1182 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
I took that into consideration when I thought about his target audience. However, Jim then lobs in the line (or something to the equivalent)

"If its good enough for the Big 3, it's good enough for me."

So which way to go? I think soldiering is the way to go and the above posts convinced me to learn.
solder and shrink tubing.... use rosin core solder. twist wires togther. touch iron to the back side of exposed wires, and touch solder to the top.. allow it to flow thru, and make sure it's fully covered
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  #1183 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 12:31 PM
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I also purchase from mcmastercarr.com, but they are a little pricey for the electrical parts I use a lot of. Their customer service, and shipping is the best I have seen yet. I have placed an on line order at 6:30 PM, and recieved it by 10:30 the next morning.
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  #1184 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2009, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGK95
I took that into consideration when I thought about his target audience. However, Jim then lobs in the line (or something to the equivalent)

"If its good enough for the Big 3, it's good enough for me."

So which way to go? I think soldiering is the way to go and the above posts convinced me to learn.
The big three have expensive machine driven crimpers that do a much better job than a pair of hand crimpers ever could.

FWIW, I have never seen a twisted, soldered shrink wrap connection fail in over 40 years of working on cars both for a living and a hobby.

A solder joint that is brittle is a cold solder joint from the get go. If the solder flows right it is not going to go brittle.

Vince

Last edited by 302 Z28; 05-27-2009 at 10:10 PM.
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  #1185 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2009, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JGK95
I'm sorry Mike.

I too had the problems with getting the journal configured and after several pm's to get this resolved it never was. I thought it was due to the bias against StreetBeast cars.

Jay K.

ps. I can Man up when I'm wrong, and Stand up when I'm right.
Grow up "boys", if you don't like something then don't buy it! Pretty simple, eh? I have a Streetbeast and love it (don't give a sh!77 if you like it or not)! Try to direct your frustration toward something that you can impact! I have NO connection to SB! TJN
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