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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 01:56 PM
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If a 305 is stroked and poked, heads are painstakingly selected ported, unshrouded etc. etc. A big chunk of cash is sunk into it and a holley 750 sits atop for an end result of "MAYBE" 400 hp (sounds like a reach to me), how good of gas mileage will it end up getting in the end really?

Why not just start with a stock 350 Vortec, give it a mild cam and a Q-jet, headders and call it a day..

The thing about performance is there are no free lunches. If you want "X" amount of power, you are going to have to create "X" amount of heat within the cylinder walls to get there, meaning 400 HP is typically going to require a minimum amount of fuel to attain it reguardless of the engine configuration.

One slight exception to this rule is forced induction. It creates a more efficent burn than naturally aspirated motors. At the other end of this rule of physics are the poorly tuned or poorly configured motors that require exponential amounts of fuel to reach "X" amount of power.

If you want to play, youve got to pay.. Especially @ the gas pump.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-21-2010, 02:24 PM
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This "stroker 305" had it's origins in, where else, CALIFORNIA. Where they LOOK for modified parts on inspection. The 305 blocks have "305" cast into them, in raised numbers. That makes it hard to pass off a 350 as a 305. So, they build it to it's "need", they make IT bigger. No, it's not ideal. Sure, it costs more to do a 305 than a 350, or even a 383, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, when playing with the man. I bought a stroker, 305 to 334 kit, many years ago, had it stored for most of that time, and finally used it for my truck. Would I do it again? Only if I lived in California, and that is'nt going to happen anytime soon.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:54 AM
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You had a 334 and you put it into a truck?
-thats not saying much
Building a 334 costs more than a 383
-Thats NOT true.
Gentlemen, I am not here to argue, and your entitled to your opinion, sure. But giving out information that is incomplete or all together not true is not justified by your other comments. I agree in stock form the 305 is a pig, and I have the 2nd highest rated 305 ever made, the 1985 LB9 TPI, second ONLY to the 5 speed versions made in 91 and 92. BUT lets not get hasty by talking about something you have never tried. I seriously doubt either one of you has ever tried to make a 305 run, because if you did, you wouldn't make such blanket statements.
That being said, show me proof a 305 wont perform. I want to see pics of the builds you are talking about and time slips. I know how to get plenty of 305 build pics and time slips to back up my claims. My claims about a 305 that will run 13's with just bolt ons, or a 305 that ran DEEP 12's with ported stock heads, or a FEW 305's that run 11's with a blower and one with a turbo using A STOCK 305 with fuel and exhaust knocking on 10's. I dont stand for a-typical opinions, put up or shut up.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:39 AM
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Simply because a thing "can" be done does not necessarily make the decision to do it a good one.

The smaller bore size of a 305 will always have it playing catch-up to a larger bore. That's just how it is.

If you are happy w/the 334 deal, then by all means go for it! Just do not expect to make many (any?) converts while there are better foundations to build on. Ever hear of an OEM 4-bolt 305, for instance? Or even "true" Vortec heads w/the correct chamber size to use on a 305 build that didn't require compromising the deck thickness on an OEM head?

The 305 will always occupy a small niche portion of the high performance SBC family tree- it was installed in countless vehicles through the years, and in some cases like when the smog police are involved, it might be the ONLY option. But for the rest, the 4"-and-up bore blocks will be preferred.

Good luck, though. Don't let me or anyone else dampen your spirits- it's ALL hotrodding, IMO.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:02 AM
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I agree with cobalt, the 305 discussion has been done to death. There are a few articles where they get 400 horse out of the 305. Is it really a surprise that when you bump the compression, stick a big cam in it and spend over a grand on aftermarket heads you can get a few horsepower out of it? They act like they discovered the holy grail when the same can be said for any other smallblock platform with better end results.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2010, 09:00 AM
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Some people just love to argue. I just said in my other posts I have NOT found any use for the 334.
As for the 305 being bested by ANY other small block, yeah right. Thousand dollar heads? Try $600 and change.
I have a Vortec 350, and my build preference is not a 305, so im sure my spirits will be same as always.
You at least could have thrown a magazine article at me with a vortec 350 making 440hp and the 305 making 371hp. All other things being the same pretty much. Not to mention you would be hard pressed to feel safe spinning a 305 high enough to take advantage of the power with stock internals. Peak HP with milled vortec heads was 6100rpm (Hate me article) meaning shifting at 6400rpm or more would have to occur to get the best times at the track. I dont feel safe spinning a stock 305 cast bottom end to 6500rpm. What I just said "hurts" the 305's reputation MORE than anything you just did and ya know why? Because everything you said was a BLANKET statement. As I said before. FYI the 305 vortecs flow pretty well and the 305 engine is still called a vortec by GM.
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:31 AM
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I was thinking of stroking a 305 for my TA,stroker kit, 10-1 pistons, World Product SR 305 Torquer heads, Melling cam, factory aluminum manifold and Q-jet, than realized that I would just be building a Pontiac 350 which would be a whole lot cheaper and easier to do. Actually the Pontiac 350 is just a stroked 307. Now to find a 700R4 that matches a Pontiac.

The Chevy 305 is FANTASTIC for what it was designed for, fuel economy and emissions, for a street engine it really hard to beat. For track use it really is TOO expensive and time consuming to bother with, just find a 350 and be done with it, the time is better spent enjoying your work than chasing pipe dreams.
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:17 AM
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Oh, someone asked about a bad ***** 305 block... I forgot to tell you they MAKE (GM) a bowtie 305 block
http://store.fastcommerce.com/perfor...10a02f1-p.html
$850.00
Look at the rest of the Myers racing page to see how serious you can make a 305.There are literally tons of other pages like that for the circle track cars.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdDegree
Some people just love to argue.
Funny how when I merely voice an opinion, I'm "arguing". But when YOU say something, it is totally reasonable and not at all argumentative.

If a 3.736" bore 2-bolt OEM block gets the job done for ya, great. I don't see using an aftermarket block as a viable alternative to a common 4" nominal bore block- unless it was due to a racing class requirement for a ~3-3/4" bore. But unless the bore was specified, a bigger bore than a 305 OEM would be coupled to a shorter stroke to derive the required displacement, for obvious reasons.

That said, I'm sure somewhere or in some class (dirt track comes to mind) there are guys successfully using a small bore/long stroke combo to good effect. But not on the street, where you get to do whatever you want- smog cops not withstanding.

Auf wiedersehen.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:08 PM
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What is it your trying to prove exactly? You can make more power with more cubes? Or a 305 isnt worth it?
Im not arguing, you cannot tell someones demeanor on the internet. This is a friendly debate for me, nothing else. I cannot blame most of the public for hating 305's, they were created with smog and good mileage in mind and there is very little info available about what a 305 can do. 350hp is nothing but a head and cam swap with supporting mods on a stock short block, and it CAN still be emissions legal. If someone is building for MAX HP they wouldn't care about emissions and they wouldnt use a 305 anyway. So once more you havnt said anything.
Bottom line is a 305 can make great power and is fine for a street car. It doesnt matter what you say when there is tons of evidence that proves otherwise, and thats something your going to have to comes to terms with. Now you have stated your opinion, what more do you want? To change my mind?? Good luck. I'll take FACTS over a bunch of jibberish, any day.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 07-22-2010, 09:42 PM
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Actually, thirddegree, I think people are trying to figure out what point YOU are trying to prove. First you tell us that some people just like to argue, then you proceed to argue. I mean, you certainly can't make that claim with a strait face when you dug up a 7 year old thread just yesterday and have posted in it 5 times in the last 24 hours! You tell people to present facts and none of your posts contain any more data than those you are trying to refute. I certainly don't get it.

I think the point that everbody has pretty clearly laid out in the last 3 pages and 7 years is that if you're building for power a 305 is a poor choice. The original poster's claim was that a 334 could out torque a similarly-dressed 350. Obviously none of us have those two motors in front of us, you don't either. The point is to use your experience to come up with an educated guess about the result.

I think the lesson here is you don't have to play professor, TD. Its obvious you only have a few posts and it shows in the way you're handling yourself, been there done that. I would suggest throttling back a bit, this thread is pretty well fleshed out. As far as entertainment value is concerned, however, I think your point about the 305 being a "Mysterious" build that is "more challenging" than a 350 or 400 because one actually has to "measure stuff" was worth a pretty hearty chuckle.

K
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killerformula
Actually, thirddegree, I think people are trying to figure out what point YOU are trying to prove. First you tell us that some people just like to argue, then you proceed to argue. I mean, you certainly can't make that claim with a strait face when you dug up a 7 year old thread just yesterday and have posted in it 5 times in the last 24 hours! You tell people to present facts and none of your posts contain any more data than those you are trying to refute. I certainly don't get it.

I think the point that everbody has pretty clearly laid out in the last 3 pages and 7 years is that if you're building for power a 305 is a poor choice. The original poster's claim was that a 334 could out torque a similarly-dressed 350. Obviously none of us have those two motors in front of us, you don't either. The point is to use your experience to come up with an educated guess about the result.

I think the lesson here is you don't have to play professor, TD. Its obvious you only have a few posts and it shows in the way you're handling yourself, been there done that. I would suggest throttling back a bit, this thread is pretty well fleshed out. As far as entertainment value is concerned, however, I think your point about the 305 being a "Mysterious" build that is "more challenging" than a 350 or 400 because one actually has to "measure stuff" was worth a pretty hearty chuckle.

K
What so I am my post count now? I "only have a few posts" so there for I dont know what I talking about?? Get a grip! I posted plenty of information on where to look regarding 305 (NOTICE "305") builds. Im not going to hold your hand, doing the actual homework is up to you. What point am I trying to make? Did you read any of my older posts? It would seem that this waste of time reply of yours is floating right along with what I said about having no solid evidence. Truth is, a 334 IS lacking in data, which I already said in my first post. "I have seen very little to suggest the stroker is worth it." Getting more HP from a smaller engine IS more challenging and yes, you would have to measure a few things, as with any stroker compared to just dropping in a 350. It's pretty hard to believe that this forum is so seperated from reality that you people act like a 12 second 305 is a total myth. If so, you need to get out more. Anything else I have to post about? Its the fact idiotic comments keep threatening me (changing the topics as usual) and not the info itself which is why this topic is getting no where, you would have thought that wouldve be apparent too. Quit trying to argue and have a decent debate with real info instead of trying to make it personal is all I can tell you.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:55 AM
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I thought I would give your Tour de Force here a look see. Questionable, at best, IMO.

The following is my opinion. You do not have to like it. You too, can "lump" it. (I'm sure I was in the third grade last time I heard that... )

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdDegree
Im resurrecting the dead.
This is the bottom line with the 305
I'm ALWAYS amused at a post that begins like this. I mean "THIS IS THE BOTTOM LINE!" As if.

Quote:
Given the number of GM cars produced with this engine it should be more popular.
Why? There are more 60 Chevy car engines than ANY 90 engine, so why aren't the 60 engines all the rage? I mean, there EVERYWHERE!! I'll tell you why: Because they're ill suited to high performance. Just like the 305.

Quote:
Especially with the latest trends being efficiency with a small engine.
In the passenger car arena, maybe. But in the hotrod arena, bigger engines are being built daily. Never before has a larger percentage of our engines been strokers! 383's are the 'new' 350. 496's are the 'new' 454. There are street driven 454 SBC, and BBC's pushing 600 cid are commonplace.

Quote:
Take the LS1 for example
Why? Your 305 is closer to the 4.8L and was designed as the replacement for the 305. And just like your 305, the 4.8L is often looked at as the last choice- the larger displacement engines are preferred- just like w/the 305 and the 350/400 SBC.

Quote:
...given the same designs the 305 should look a lot like an LS1 as far as curve signatures given the 305 is allowed to breathe with a nice ECU.
Now, I do not know what you mean by "curve signatures" (power curve, maybe??), or how an engine control unit or "ECU" makes an engine "breath" any better, or worse- the valve train and induction tract has primary control of that- the ECU contributes properly timed fuel and timing. But if you could put an LS-type head on your little 305, it would do better. MUCH better. As would the 4" bore Gen 1 engine. And just like before, the larger engine will make more power. That will not change.

Quote:
Does this mean that the 305 will be popular? Hell NO! According to the old timers its not worth building a 305 when the 350/400 have more cubes and THE SAME bolt patterns for parts!
You needn't be an old timer to recognise that fact, but at least there's something most will agree w/you on.

Quote:
Not to mention its takes skill to build a 305 vs a 350. I mean look at the options for a 350 for ANY part and you will see that ANYONE can build a 350 with a call to a parts house. With the 305 you actually have to measure stuff, do calculations, find parts that will work.
Oh, well- EVERYBODY knows the 305 is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Or was that Russia? lol

Quote:
Cylinder heads for a 305 are VERY hard to find.
And did you ever stop to consider why this is?? Possibly because it is ill suited as a high performance foundation? Possibly because it has but a 2-bolt main block, that the bore is 1/4" shy of the commonly available 4" bore blocks? That the largest practical cid limit is ~340 cid?

Quote:
There are 2 purpose built heads on the market right now, both aluminum. The first is the TFS 23degree 175cc heads with 1.94/1.50 valves and 58cc chambers. The next is a SPEC head from Brodix designed by French Grimes for the Racesaver series sprint cars.
What, cast iron heads suddenly don't count?

Quote:
These engines produce anywhere from 420-460hp using 99 octane (methanol) and they are extremely fast. There are no special tricks to them and the heads aren't the best. I recommend looking at them if you want to get an idea for building a cheap 305 that will produce 350-400HP
Umm, you might want to check that octane rating of methanol there, pard.

And what is cheap about an aluminum headed alky burning engine, anyway? And 350-400 HP? We have guys HERE that can get that power from a 305 using a set of worked 416 heads and gasoline for crying out loud!

Quote:
Last but not least there are a few builds on the net for 305's, my favorite is any of them that use cheap Vortec heads. I also have some threads about 305's on thirdgen.org, maliburacing.com and speedtalk.com with very good info. NOW: to answer the 305 stroker questions. The 305 stroker also known as the 334-340ci is about $675.00 through powerhouse or enginekits.com and the one I like is by Speed O Motive which is higher quality. It uses a small journal 3.750" stroker crank
It's common knowledge the small journal (SJ) crank wasn't used in 305 engines. And SoM has had their issues through the years. They have had crappy QC and there are many such reports every forum you go to.

Quote:
and a 5.700 connecting rod. NOT a 5.565 like a 400ci. Being that I LIKE 305's because I go for the underdog, they represent MORE of a DIY approach which is what Hot Rodding is partly supposed to be about (and you dont see much of that "mysterious" building anymore).
The only "mystery" for me is why someone comes on here talking like the 305 is anything special. It is not- it is a pedestrian engine that serve a purpose of reasonable power, economy and emissions compliance. Nothing more- nothing less.

Quote:
Other than that, I have NOT found much of a reason to build a 334, besides the fact that Joe Sherman (Engine Masters Challenge winner 2008) told me its worth it (he did it), and there is a guy with a tuned port camaro running one with stock 081 TPI heads and stock TPI and he is running 13.4's @ 98mph with 2.73 gears!
*YAWN* Oh, sorry, I drifted off there. So, WOW! 13.4's, huh? Gotta get me some o' dat! lol Ever hear of an OD 4-speed AT? Has real low first gear, a 2.73 w/a 700R4 is like a TH350 w/a 3.31. No big deal.

Quote:
SO..As an ending statement, I see 305's getting more popular in the next 20 years as car technology goes further away from gas and nostalgia builds take precendence. If you dont like it, LUMP IT and go build a 350, no big deal.
20 years from now, there will be less 305's than ever. The aftermarket will not be making 3-3/4" bore SBC Gen 1 engine blocks.

The OEM will be full of the LS-derivatives and hopefully even better small block inspired engines yet to be dreamt of. But, sorry- no 305's within sight of land. Most will be a the end of a chain, the other end of that chain will be attached to a boat's winch. LOL
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Old 07-23-2010, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I thought I would give your Tour de Force here a look see. Questionable, at best, IMO.

The following is my opinion. You do not have to like it. You too, can "lump" it. (I'm sure I was in the third grade last time I heard that... )

I'm ALWAYS amused at a post that begins like this. I mean "THIS IS THE BOTTOM LINE!" As if. As if? lol

Why? There are more 60 Chevy car engines than ANY 90 engine, so why aren't the 60 engines all the rage? I mean, there EVERYWHERE!! I'll tell you why: Because they're ill suited to high performance. Just like the 305.

In the passenger car arena, maybe. But in the hotrod arena, bigger engines are being built daily. Never before has a larger percentage of our engines been strokers! 383's are the 'new' 350. 496's are the 'new' 454. There are street driven 454 SBC, and BBC's pushing 600 cid are commonplace.

Why? Your 305 is closer to the 4.8L and was designed as the replacement for the 305. And just like your 305, the 4.8L is often looked at as the last choice- the larger displacement engines are preferred- just like w/the 305 and the 350/400 SBC.

Now, I do not know what you mean by "curve signatures" (power curve, maybe??), or how an engine control unit or "ECU" makes an engine "breath" any better, or worse- the valve train and induction tract has primary control of that- the ECU contributes properly timed fuel and timing. But if you could put an LS-type head on your little 305, it would do better. MUCH better. As would the 4" bore Gen 1 engine. And just like before, the larger engine will make more power. That will not change.

You needn't be an old timer to recognise that fact, but at least there's something most will agree w/you on.

Oh, well- EVERYBODY knows the 305 is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Or was that Russia? lol

And did you ever stop to consider why this is?? Possibly because it is ill suited as a high performance foundation? Possibly because it has but a 2-bolt main block, that the bore is 1/4" shy of the commonly available 4" bore blocks? That the largest practical cid limit is ~340 cid?

What, cast iron heads suddenly don't count?

Umm, you might want to check that octane rating of methanol there, pard.

And what is cheap about an aluminum headed alky burning engine, anyway? And 350-400 HP? We have guys HERE that can get that power from a 305 using a set of worked 416 heads and gasoline for crying out loud!

It's common knowledge the small journal (SJ) crank wasn't used in 305 engines. And SoM has had their issues through the years. They have had crappy QC and there are many such reports every forum you go to.

The only "mystery" for me is why someone comes on here talking like the 305 is anything special. It is not- it is a pedestrian engine that serve a purpose of reasonable power, economy and emissions compliance. Nothing more- nothing less.

*YAWN* Oh, sorry, I drifted off there. So, WOW! 13.4's, huh? Gotta get me some o' dat! lol Ever hear of an OD 4-speed AT? Has real low first gear, a 2.73 w/a 700R4 is like a TH350 w/a 3.31. No big deal.

20 years from now, there will be less 305's than ever. The aftermarket will not be making 3-3/4" bore SBC Gen 1 engine blocks.

The OEM will be full of the LS-derivatives and hopefully even better small block inspired engines yet to be dreamt of. But, sorry- no 305's within sight of land. Most will be a the end of a chain, the other end of that chain will be attached to a boat's winch. LOL
Now your picking a part sentences and twisting words to suit your ego? You are either immature or just plain senseless, and your last post shows every bit of it. Not only that but your reading comprehension is horrible, and your math is as well.. R+m/2 method proves methanol is 99 octane. The racesaver is a SPEC engine. DO you know what SPEC is? Man what is this crap? All of its twisted BS! You expect me (or anyone) to believe that you are a grown man? Russia? That was 45-50 years ago!! Maybe you are by age, but thats all! Bashed because I give some 305 advice, not saying ANYTHING about it being better than any other engine or "special" but im ridiculed for it because you dont like it, and now my words are being taken out of context and twisted around. Pathetic and immature. Not even worth my time to dissect this crap, especially from an ill faded whistle blowing old man. You say you learn all you can, then teach when you can but that has to be a joke because you sure dont act like it. If you want to be perceived as a professional you at least have to act decent enough to be one. All BS aside you have a serious issue and you may need to talk to someone. Anyway, for what its worth, I really dont have any more time to waste on this.


As for anyone interested in modifying their 305, look at some info I gave out, especially around the circle track forums and parts suppliers, engine builders who build 305's (speed o motive for strokers and Myers engines are a couple) also cars with 305's running good
Ken Richard, Dave Casey (record holder), Jeff Coyne (Former National Record Holder) and a few others who run 10's with a 305 in stock eliminator class.
I would suggest posting on forums 305 friendly like Maliburacing.com and speedtalk.com or else you get the "know it all's" Oh, and GM offers a 305 bowtie block for around IF you race in a 305 class, or limited class like stock elim.
http://store.fastcommerce.com/perfor...10a02f1-p.html

Last edited by ThirdDegree; 07-23-2010 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:10 AM
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NHRA tech specs

Stroking a 305 has been done by GM themselves, it's called a Pontiac 326.
Stroking a 307 has been done by GM themselves, it's called a Pontiac 350.

GM did it very much better, the Pontiacs have much stronger blocks, much better heads, bigger valves and much longer rods for a better rod/stroke ratio. Stroking the Chevy orphans is just a very expensive way to build a Pontiac AND still come up short.

The only practical use for a stroked 305 is to put it in an Astro van, it will get better mileage than a 350 BUT the 4.3 gets better mileage than either.
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