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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
It doesn't "Change" Ackermann angle, it eliminates it. And not only does it eliminate it, that would be cool if the only thing that happen was that both tires turned at the same angle as it rounded a corner. But just switching the spindles side for side literally flops it 180 degrees and makes the outer wheel that is turning a larger radius turn a tighter radius than the inside side tire!

Does it "work" without it, yes but it is going so radically against proper steering geometry one is seriously asking for trouble. People do it because it's easy. People have building cars for years with serious bump steer because of lowered axles putting the drag link at a horrible angle (did it myself and drove for years every day) but because people have done it and got away with it doesn't make it right. That's one of the things I dig about alignment geometry, there is little opinion, it is either right or wrong, proper steering angle or Ackermann angle (same thing, people don't use the Ackermann name much any more.) either exists or it doesn't.

Brian
Doesn't even pay to argue with you about this.. We did a 100 times already.. Like I sayed.. I did it.. And as far as bump steer.. We are talking about two different things here.. If everyone would take what you say.. No one would ever build a car.. You can't do this and you can't do that.. Man get off your ***** in try sometimes.. You just might learn you can.. Very sad Brian.. Very sad..Thank God you was never around to tell me not to try.. I would have never had the fun in building ALL the cars I did..Thank God..

Thanks God the Wright brothers didn't listen to the ones that said..the BOOK'S say it won't work.. Don't do it..

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by timothale View Post
The last 2 T bucket chassis built I used a set of plans from CCR, $ 25 for everything. and there are Free downloads of youngsters plans here on the WIKI , Everything fit, . Before I used to do a mockup using 2 X 4 lumber. T bucket frames are similat to a lot of home built rat rod . One I put 8 in more in the front frame section and another 4 in more after the rear kickup.
A t-bucket frame is one of the easiest frame to build.. Not very hard to do your own planning..

Here's the one I just built myself..
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 04:10 PM
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There is right and there is wrong. I remember my very first job, sweeping the floor at a full on rod shop. They were building a 29 Model A roadster with a blown 392 Hemi. They had chromed all the front suspension and were installing it and found that the tie rod hit the hairpin radius rods. The guy swapped the spindles side to side and that is where I learned about Ackermann angle, one of his friends explained it to him. I was 17 years old at the time and I have made sure I never made that mistake in the many cars I have co-built, or built. Never did make that mistake, because it's a choice. Do it right or do it "good enough". I chose to do it right. I am not telling anyone "you can't do that" I am offering a suggestion how how to do something, that is all, offering a suggestion. They can chose to do it as I suggest, or some other way.

I am also not saying that everyone who has chosen to ignore the Ackermann principle is a bad person or hack or anything like that. You are very right Randy, it has been done for years and "worked". I don't always do the best body and paint work that I am capable of, depending on the job and the expectations of the owner (me or someone else) on that particular car, the quality I choose varies greatly, just as most any one of us.

While building a car or modifying one we make many choices, this is just one of them. You can say it's ok to run no Ackermann and I can say one shouldn't, it's two opinions given to a guy building a car who can then chose what is best for him. It's great that a guy can come to a forum like this and get different opinions isn't it?

And by the way, there is NO argument, we are not arguing, we not trying to convince the other of what we are saying. We are giving someone who asked a question a suggestion that is all we are doing, it's no big deal.

Brian
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:16 PM
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suspension angles.

In the mid 60's a Local engine builder built a 53 stude for bonneville , 392 hemi T 10 4 speed, halibrand rear end. A couple times I told him his front end geometry was wrong. It was going to dance on him.. He ran over the record , and on his back up it turned over at 190 plus, broke apart, the t 10 broke his arm as it went out the back window.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
There is right and there is wrong. I remember my very first job, sweeping the floor at a full on rod shop. They were building a 29 Model A roadster with a blown 392 Hemi. They had chromed all the front suspension and were installing it and found that the tie rod hit the hairpin radius rods. The guy swapped the spindles side to side and that is where I learned about Ackermann angle, one of his friends explained it to him. I was 17 years old at the time and I have made sure I never made that mistake in the many cars I have co-built, or built. Never did make that mistake, because it's a choice. Do it right or do it "good enough". I chose to do it right. I am not telling anyone "you can't do that" I am offering a suggestion how how to do something, that is all, offering a suggestion. They can chose to do it as I suggest, or some other way.

I am also not saying that everyone who has chosen to ignore the Ackermann principle is a bad person or hack or anything like that. You are very right Randy, it has been done for years and "worked". I don't always do the best body and paint work that I am capable of, depending on the job and the expectations of the owner (me or someone else) on that particular car, the quality I choose varies greatly, just as most any one of us.

While building a car or modifying one we make many choices, this is just one of them. You can say it's ok to run no Ackermann and I can say one shouldn't, it's two opinions given to a guy building a car who can then chose what is best for him. It's great that a guy can come to a forum like this and get different opinions isn't it?

And by the way, there is NO argument, we are not arguing, we not trying to convince the other of what we are saying. We are giving someone who asked a question a suggestion that is all we are doing, it's no big deal.

Brian
Just sad to see people make it out to be such a BIG problem when it really isn't... People blow chassis building WAAAAAY Out of proportion it's funny.. People have no clue just how easy it is to build a chassis without worrying about all The IF THIS, IF THAT..Man !!! Some of the things people will say to someone will scare the hell out of them.. Teaching them is one thing..
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 04:36 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Oh hell yes building a straight axle chassis is easy, but just like it is easy to do it out of square or in square, it can be built with the Ackermann angle or without, it's just a choice. It's like my warnings to people sandblasting sheetmetal when I tell them DON'T DO IT. Some would say it's easy and I am scaring them. No, I have learned that it is VERY difficult to do properly and without destroying panels. So I warn them so they don't make the same mistake. It is helping someone make an informed decision that's all.

Brian
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Oh hell yes building a straight axle chassis is easy, but just like it is easy to do it out of square or in square, it can be built with the Ackermann angle or without, it's just a choice. It's like my warnings to people sandblasting sheetmetal when I tell them DON'T DO IT. Some would say it's easy and I am scaring them. No, I have learned that it is VERY difficult to do properly and without destroying panels. So I warn them so they don't make the same mistake. It is helping someone make an informed decision that's all.

Brian
Brian.. I seen where you told one guy..
Don't chop your top... You may mess it up..
Another guy..
Don't do a clip.. You will mess it up..
Don't every blast your panels..you will mess them up
And so on..

Everyone mess's up.. It's Ok.. That's the best way to learn to get better sometimes.. But some can do it without messing up... But they won't know until they try...

Your making people scare to try..

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 05:58 PM
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Nope, the best way is to be taught correctly, then you don't have to make mistakes. It doesn't stop the learning process one bit, as long as you are given the reasons why you would do it that way.

I feel it would be terribly irresponsible to tell someone to do something that may be out of their league. Especially when it may RUIN their project.

Chopping the top on a large curved window car with large curved tempered glass on the sides and rear is VERY difficult. Seen more than one car or truck left unfinished. I personally ruined a beautiful 64 SS Nova because it was over my head at 18 years old. I have also finished one of them myself that someone else screwed all up and had to get a whole new roof. Chopping an easy car, heck yes, as you can see by this "Basics" I wrote on sectioning. Sectioning - Autobodystore Is is possible, sure, but I am going to warn, I think it's my responsibility.

Sandblasting RUINS panels, to the point of needing to throw them away. That is a warning I am going to give. I have seen WAY too many threads on some guy's beloved project that is now RUINED because of sand blasting. Is is possible, sure, but I am going to warn, I think it's my responsibility.

Clipping, yes it can be one VERY overwhelming project. We are talking about something very complex with LOTS of different issues. It comes easy to you because you are highly skilled. But I will warn people about those difficulties. Is is possible, sure, but I am going to warn, I think it's my responsibility.


There are plenty times when someone askes a question and by the WAY the question is asked, with the back ground info on what their expectations are, on their previous experience I am going to suggest sometimes, don't do that. I know from my experience that some of those things are pretty taxing, and I have done this stuff my whole life. Not the best at it, but I have done it my whole life. So if it was taxing to me, why would I not want to pass that on?

I just did my convertible top, some people said no way, some people explained the hardest parts. Without those suggestions I WOULD have ruined that top. I took a lot of advice from a lot of people and put it all together and did what made sense. These forums are GREAT for that! Thank goodness for these forums where we can learn something and teach something too!

Like I have said Randy, there is no reason for you to keep commenting on this. It isn't that big of a deal. I gave my suggestion, others have gave theirs, including yourself. It's all good.

Brian
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:24 PM
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Nope, the best way is to be taught correctly, then you don't have to make mistakes. It doesn't stop the learning process one bit, as long as you are given the reasons why you would do it that way.

I feel it would be terribly irresponsible to tell someone to do something that may be out of their league. Especially when it may RUIN their project.

Chopping the top on a large curved window car with large curved tempered glass on the sides and rear is VERY difficult. Seen more than one car or truck left unfinished. I personally ruined a beautiful 64 SS Nova because it was over my head at 18 years old. I have also finished one of them myself that someone else screwed all up and had to get a whole new roof. Chopping an easy car, heck yes, as you can see by this "Basics" I wrote on sectioning. Sectioning - Autobodystore Is is possible, sure, but I am going to warn, I think it's my responsibility.

Sandblasting RUINS panels, to the point of needing to throw them away. That is a warning I am going to give. I have seen WAY too many threads on some guy's beloved project that is now RUINED because of sand blasting. Is is possible, sure, but I am going to warn, I think it's my responsibility.

Clipping, yes it can be one VERY overwhelming project. We are talking about something very complex with LOTS of different issues. It comes easy to you because you are highly skilled. But I will warn people about those difficulties. Is is possible, sure, but I am going to warn, I think it's my responsibility.


There are plenty times when someone askes a question and by the WAY the question is asked, with the back ground info on what their expectations are, on their previous experience I am going to suggest sometimes, don't do that. I know from my experience that some of those things are pretty taxing, and I have done this stuff my whole life. Not the best at it, but I have done it my whole life. So if it was taxing to me, why would I not want to pass that on?

I just did my convertible top, some people said no way, some people explained the hardest parts. Without those suggestions I WOULD have ruined that top. I took a lot of advice from a lot of people and put it all together and did what made sense. These forums are GREAT for that! Thank goodness for these forums where we can learn something and teach something too!

Like I have said Randy, there is no reason for you to keep commenting on this. It isn't that big of a deal. I gave my suggestion, others have gave theirs, including yourself. It's all good.

Brian
Even if your taught correctly,,You will still mess up SOMETIMES..
As far as your ''Basics'' I never read one..
I really don't spend much time reading.. But if you feel you need to write them.. Good for you.. You should write book's... I can think of a few good titles for you..I like the way you make your comments.. But want me to stop commenting..

Brain.. One question.. Is your brother(the one that build's hotrods) younger then you or is he the oldest ??? Just wondering..
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:29 PM
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DeeW.. sorry your thread took a different turn.. Just hate to see people say some of the things they say about building stuff...(hotrods)..

Good luck with your build..
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:39 PM
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I used a spring over with a reverse eye and a 4 inch drop axle, it drives great no problems turning and it kept my front axle back so I could run my frame horns
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:06 PM
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Suicide front end

Thanks guys for all the input. If you all were not so passionate about our sport/hobby/lifestyle, we wouldn't get the constructive input and valuable experienced based knowledge. It is really interesting getting all the angles( no pun intended), so I will keep asking the questions and hopefully continue getting all the responses. I feel a lot better about my build now. Thanks again.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 09:23 PM
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I used a spring over with a reverse eye and a 4 inch drop axle, it drives great no problems turning and it kept my front axle back so I could run my frame horns
Cool looking truck you have..
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:10 AM
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thanks its a blast to drive
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:16 PM
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I do chassis' for a living.With a I-beam axle,follow what Ford designed and you can't go wrong.
And if your building it from scratch,built it to work correctly.
Why do it wrong ? I hate seeing tie rods out front.(and grill/rad headlights etc in the wrong spot)

Here's the truck chassis we sell.click on the pic it gets a little bigger.
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