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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 01:42 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
One Question for the chassis engineer's here..
Get under a factory Mustang II With the rack in the front.. Try to draw these lines and see where they end up on a Mustang II.. Why your at it.. Get under a 2000 Yukon and try doing the same thing... Let see what your lines will Look like..

And case you don't know it.. You can't make these lines meet at the rear..

since You guy's got it all figured out,, you need to tell me why these cars was built this way..

Must be why they started putting the rack's in the back...
Randy I don't know the correct geometry terms or a good way to explain it. But what you are seeing is where there are multiple pivot points and angles creating the akermann angle. It isn't as simple as an I-Beam axle were this angle is in plain view. But it still exists there among all the invisible lines all over that suspension.

Every car made since cars first were made have this angle in them, it can't be faked, the inside wheel is taking a much smaller radius turn around a corner thus it needs to turn sharper.

Brian

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 01:44 PM
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It's like at a track and field event where the runners in the inside lanes start back further than the ones in the outside lane, because their lane is shorter than the outside lane.

Brian

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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:01 PM
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(Quote)
Neither anti-dive nor Ackerman are necessary.

Anti-dive wasn't even available before ball joints and does not improve handling performance. And, at first, some manufacturers were reluctant to use it. Ford products of the sixties will just about scrape the front bumper on braking. This was the result of little or no anti-dive and a softly sprung car. Since ride deteriorates as anti-dive increases, Ford engineers opted for a smoother ride. Certainly, with a stiffly sprung car and a low center of gravity, the presence of anti-dive becomes difficult to detect.

As for Ackermann steering, it was developed...according to Maurice Olley...primarily to avoid disturbing the gravel on the driveways of wealthy owners of early motorcars. To gain the optimum grip from the lightly loaded inside tires, Formula One designers have even used reverse Ackermann.(Quote)

A little Quote from our friend Billyshope..
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Randy I don't know the correct geometry terms or a good way to explain it. But what you are seeing is where there are multiple pivot points and angles creating the akermann angle. It isn't as simple as an I-Beam axle were this angle is in plain view. But it still exists there among all the invisible lines all over that suspension.

Every car made since cars first were made have this angle in them, it can't be faked, the inside wheel is taking a much smaller radius turn around a corner thus it needs to turn sharper.

Brian
Draw the lines and prove it..
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:04 PM
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It's like at a track and field event where the runners in the inside lanes start back further than the ones in the outside lane, because their lane is shorter than the outside lane.

Brian

What are we building.. NASCARS ..
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Randy I don't know the correct geometry terms or a good way to explain it. But what you are seeing is where there are multiple pivot points and angles creating the akermann angle. It isn't as simple as an I-Beam axle were this angle is in plain view. But it still exists there among all the invisible lines all over that suspension.

Every car made since cars first were made have this angle in them, it can't be faked, the inside wheel is taking a much smaller radius turn around a corner thus it needs to turn sharper.

Brian
Why do the front wheels on my yukon scrib when turnning sharp..Explaine it..
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Randy I don't know the correct geometry terms or a good way to explain it. But what you are seeing is where there are multiple pivot points and angles creating the akermann angle. It isn't as simple as an I-Beam axle were this angle is in plain view. But it still exists there among all the invisible lines all over that suspension.

Every car made since cars first were made have this angle in them, it can't be faked, the inside wheel is taking a much smaller radius turn around a corner thus it needs to turn sharper.

Brian
Go look for all the book you read.. Until you get out in the shop in do it first hand.. Don't just tell me it's and the book's, On paper, My brother did it, And so on.. I did it and it show's very little difference. If any at all... Because your not taken a HARD right turn at 95 MPH..

I forgot.. Your have done it all..
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:19 PM
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You realize you are arguing with about 125,145,887,4113 people?

I don't have all the answers, I only know that we are talking about what looks like common sense to me and the excepted norm in every car with a straight axle.

Billy's explanation quoting ONE person is interesting. Now, with modern complex suspensions and such, it may not be as important, I don't know. But in the old cars with axles I will stick with it, it just makes sense.

Brian
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NEW INTERIORS View Post
Go look for all the book you read.. Until you get out in the shop in do it first hand.. Don't just tell me it's and the book's, On paper, My brother did it, And so on.. I did it and it show's very little difference. If any at all... Because your not taken a HARD right turn at 95 MPH..

I forgot.. Your have done it all..
Randy, so getting out in the shop and doing it makes everything right? There are no mistakes in the shop?

Like I said, you are arguing with about 125,145,887,4113 people, not only me.

Brian
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
You realize you are arguing with about 125,145,887,4113 people?

I don't have all the answers, I only know that we are talking about what looks like common sense to me and the excepted norm in every car with a straight axle.

Billy's explanation quoting ONE person is interesting. Now, with modern complex suspensions and such, it may not be as important, I don't know. But in the old cars with axles I will stick with it, it just makes sense.

Brian
I not here trying to say it doesn't change it.. I'm trying to explaine I tested this..FIRST HAND.. Not by what I read.. Again Yes it changes it.. But not enough on a everyday car... On a round track, Road course track, Yes I think hanging the corner at 90 +.. I agree you will see it.... I really don't think anyone is hanging a hard right at 90+ on the Hwy..
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:27 PM
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Like I said, you are arguing with about 125,145,887,4113 people, not only me.

Brian
This prove's nothing to me..

Prove what I asked you to prove..Go read some more..
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:29 PM
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Why are Millon's of T-Bucket's and other cars still running around like this if it's so wrong... And many people still building them this way..
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:31 PM
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Brian.. You have a lot of people fooled here.. But YOU know I can see right through you..
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 02:47 PM
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I know you will be back to prove me wrong..
But remember what I said.. I do know all about the akermann angle and what changes.. You just don't see what I'm trying to say about it..

Come back and I give you the last word..
I think I said enough..
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 12-27-2012, 03:01 PM
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Come on Randy, you KNOW you will have the last word.

It's interesting what a little education can give you, you know, that 'book learning". (with my best Beverly Hillbilly accent).

Ackermann steering geometry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It says here along the lines you were referring to.

Modern cars do not use pure Ackermann steering, partly because it ignores important dynamic and compliant effects, but the principle is sound for low speed manoeuvres. Some race cars use reverse Ackermann geometry to compensate for the large difference in slip angle between the inner and outer front tyres while cornering at high speed. The use of such geometry helps reduce tyre temperatures during high-speed cornering but compromises performance in low speed maneuvers.

This is very interesting, it doesn't change how I see it, a straight axle car will have proper akermann in my opinion, but if it were to not have akermann it isn't the end of the world but one certainly doesn't want backwards akermann. I know that I have seen tires wear badly on this setup, and it was corrected.

Brian
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