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-   -   Suicide front end (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/suicide-front-end-227424.html)

DeeW 12-21-2012 11:01 AM

Suicide front end
 
Is there any advantage to using a spring behind axel as opposed to a spring over or vice versa. I am starting to construct my own frame for a 41 Ford 1/2ton rat.

RWENUTS 12-21-2012 04:56 PM

FRame height. Spring over will sit higher. Reversed eye on spring over not as high. Spring behind drops your frame without an axle drop. Many ways to do it.
What are you using?
I-beam and split bones or tube axle and hairpins?

DeeW 12-21-2012 05:58 PM

suicide front end
 
I'm not using anything right now, just getting ready to build my frame. I want to make sure everything is planned before starting. I have never used this type of front end, but I want the Old Skool look for my hot/rat rod truck. Don't want to use M11, tired of the look.

MARTINSR 12-21-2012 07:34 PM

I know one thing, with the spring behind the axle you have very little room to put the tie rod where it belongs, behind the axle. If you put it out front you have to be sure to have the proper spindles to allow the tie rod to be long enough for proper Ackermann angle. If you don't have this angle correct the inside wheel doesn't turn a tighter radius as required when you go around a corner.

Brian

http://scottishcarties.org.uk/files/...ermann_New.jpg

OneMoreTime 12-21-2012 08:49 PM

Spring over stock axle and "Zed" frame is the old way of doing the front end..

Sam

timothale 12-22-2012 05:38 AM

spring over !
 
With a spring over , if something broke you have a better chance of the frame-parts not hitting on the ground and turning you up-side-down. and that's how the name started. That said, My second T bucket has a straight tube axle , spring behind, the only thing with a spring over is My 1922 T speedster. 27 T spindles that gives a 1 in drop reversed eye spring 1 in drop , and a 3 in dropped axle... My picts are all too large. what front axle are you going to use. ? our 46 ford truck uses 2 spring, parallel front end.

DeeW 12-22-2012 08:03 AM

Suicide front end
 
Well like I said, I have no idea what combination will work for this front end. It's a 41 Ford 1/2ton cab on a 4"x2"x3/16" frame that I am building. I am going to "Z" the frame to drop the cab and give it the proper stance. The front end has me concerned. I have seen a similar truck with. 47 Chevy 1/2ton front axle setup. I want to keep it as simple as possible as well as practical and will be using standard 350 setup. It sounds like the spring over is the best bet.

NEW INTERIORS 12-22-2012 09:07 AM

Well some of this sounds way far left then it should be... I use the spring behind a lot better to set it low if you wanted too... As far as the frontend fallin off... Well ...That shouldn't happen if you set it up right... And as far as the Ackermann angle.. T-bucket's been running around for many many years that way with no problems..Here's a few I'm doing now That might give you some ideas..The frames are much easier then some make it out to be.... Your not building a road course racer..:D

Here's some ideas..
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/gett...ly-197376.html
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/dadd...ng-216777.html
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/my-s...oy-213588.html

timothale 12-22-2012 10:01 AM

wrong akerman
 
wrong akerman works just fine going straight ahead. It will scrub off the tread on turns, You can get into trouble when going around a turn on a bumpy road..The front wheels are pointing different directions and the one that has the most traction decides which way you will go. You can put the spring behind and the tie rod behind with careful measurements, I have done a couple from scratch You don't want it to cross the white line with a semi coming toward you ! ! You could look at quarter eleptical springs on the front with a panard bar. , make it your self from your ford pieces

timothale 12-22-2012 10:11 AM

second look
 
I google'd ford pickup and it shows the spring in front like the cars used for 40-41. Post war used a 4 spring open drive line chassis on trucks . I have left the spring in front on one chassis I built and Z'ed the frame , If you want a spring behind, you can split the wishbone and use a shorter spring , I have seen quite a few pict's on the Hamb of that style setup. It lets you get lower, spring to the rear from the tierod. Google suicide front ind and you sill get lots of picts to look at, The Hamb site has a very poor search engine and they don't have a seperate for sale wanted section . It can take a while searching there. another site is ratrodsrule

NEW INTERIORS 12-22-2012 10:18 AM

2 Attachment(s)
That's funny.. I put this to the test on this car..I took four inch's out the crossmember, Turned the spindles on backwards, Used a geo rack, Behind the crossmember, And had no problems, No wear on the tires afther driving if for a few years.. EVERYDAY. and the guy that bought it from me NEVER had a problem as well.. We became good friends that's how I kept up with the car... So Try it first hand before saying it won't work.. I did...:mwink:
And I have many many people that can back this up that knew the car and drove the car as well..It's real easy to post what you read about the Ackermann angle,, But until you test this.. to see just how much differece it really makes.. Then your only going by what you read... Like I said ..T-bucket's have been running around like this for YEARS..

Oh.. and this car NEVER had a frontend alignment..Didn't need one..

Here's the car..
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/atta...1&d=1356196219


and here's the frame everyone said wouldn't work... It sure did.. And is still around today..

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/atta...1&d=1356196622
And here's the frame..

NEW INTERIORS 12-22-2012 10:22 AM

Guess I was just lucky..:D
And the guy that bought it from me..
And the guy that bought it from him A FEW YEARS LATER..


Does it change the Ackermann angle ???? Sure it does... I don't diagree with that one bit... But how much is the key thing here... That's why t-bucket's still use this today..

DeeW 12-22-2012 01:17 PM

OK, From what I have gathered from all info, I plan on using a spring over axle, straight with a 4"drop and hairpins. Speedway has this setup very reasonably priced. I do have some flexibility with the spring frame mount so I should be fine. If anybody knows of any drawbacks to this setup, please let me know. Thanks for all the input.

timothale 12-22-2012 01:26 PM

T bucket info
 
The last 2 T bucket chassis built I used a set of plans from CCR, $ 25 for everything. and there are Free downloads of youngsters plans here on the WIKI , Everything fit, . Before I used to do a mockup using 2 X 4 lumber. T bucket frames are similat to a lot of home built rat rod . One I put 8 in more in the front frame section and another 4 in more after the rear kickup.

MARTINSR 12-22-2012 01:41 PM

It doesn't "Change" Ackermann angle, it eliminates it. And not only does it eliminate it, that would be cool if the only thing that happen was that both tires turned at the same angle as it rounded a corner. But just switching the spindles side for side literally flops it 180 degrees and makes the outer wheel that is turning a larger radius turn a tighter radius than the inside side tire!

Does it "work" without it, yes but it is going so radically against proper steering geometry one is seriously asking for trouble. People do it because it's easy. People have building cars for years with serious bump steer because of lowered axles putting the drag link at a horrible angle (did it myself and drove for years every day) but because people have done it and got away with it doesn't make it right. That's one of the things I dig about alignment geometry, there is little opinion, it is either right or wrong, proper steering angle or Ackermann angle (same thing, people don't use the Ackermann name much any more.) either exists or it doesn't.

Brian


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