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-   -   Summit epoxy w/ Rustoleum reducer (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/summit-epoxy-w-rustoleum-reducer-184562.html)

greenmoonshine 09-16-2010 05:42 PM

Summit epoxy w/ Rustoleum reducer
 
I need to lay down some primer on my old Regal project and was just going to to it a section at a time, the first place that I am starting with is the roof.
I just bought a gallon of Summit Racings epoxy primer and catalyst and it says that you can use it as a sealer if you mix 20% reducer with it, I am a little new to the painting scene and I believe this is exactly what I want to do is use the primer as a sealer but when I ordered it I didnt order any of there reducer......so I just went down to my local Autozone and bought this
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/acc...mString=search
its rustoleums own reducer (PN248877) it doesnt specify if it fast medium or slow so I was hoping someone out there might be able to tell me if this is OK to use or should I return it and order 2 quarts from Summit in there medium version?
Thanks

shoddy_f-body 09-16-2010 06:19 PM

Using epoxy as a sealer generally means you will spray one coat and then paint directly over it without sanding.The reducer will just make it lay flatter. That doesn't sound like what you want. I would skip the risk of using that reducer altogether because it will be a major mess if its incompatable,and just mix the primer with the catalyst and spray it like that.

greenmoonshine 09-16-2010 06:40 PM

My thinking was that once I get it down to bare metal where the rust is, the thinner epoxy will get down in the pitted areas left by the newly removed rust and lie flat in there causing it to seal better, then I can go back later and fill the pits with a light coat of filler or just use filler primer (depending on depth of pits).

crashtech 09-16-2010 06:57 PM

Don't use the Rustoleum reducer unless you have detailed knowledge of what it contains. It would be best to shoot the epoxy straight if you aren't sure, you could really be opening a worm can there. Now if you were to go to an auto paint supply and get some PPG reducer like DT870, that would not be a problem.

greenmoonshine 09-16-2010 08:16 PM

Well from the looks of it the ppg has a little more to it than the rustoleum
ppg lists,
1-METHOXY-2-PROPYL ACETATE
2-METHYLCYCLOHEXANE
3-TOLUENE
4-N-HEPTANE
5-NAPHTHA
6-METHYL ETHYL KETONE
7-V.M. AND P. NAPHTHA

rustoleum lists only,
1-Acetone
2-Methyl n- Amyl Ketone
3-Ethyl 3 -ethoxy propionate
this was taken from there msds
So at most I should return the rustoleum reducer and get it from Summit,
the ppg when looking for its msds, I came across some pricing and 1 quart was a little over what I payed for the gallon on rustoleum, I can get it cheaper through Summit......but laying it down as a sealer primer will work OK right?

PaintKem 09-16-2010 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
Well from the looks of it the ppg has a little more to it than the rustoleum
ppg lists,
1-METHOXY-2-PROPYL ACETATE
2-METHYLCYCLOHEXANE - POOR FOR EPOXY
3-TOLUENE
4-N-HEPTANE POOR FOR EPOXY
5-NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY
6-METHYL ETHYL KETONE
7-V.M. AND P. NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY

rustoleum lists only,
1-Acetone - Excellent in Epoxy
2-Methyl n- Amyl Ketone - Excellent in Epoxy
3-Ethyl 3 -ethoxy propionate - Fair to good in epoxy

Definitely best to buy the reducer from Summit to be safe. Of the two you mentioned above the rustoleum blend you have listed above is actually better for conventional 2K epoxy. The wild card is water content which you won't find on the MSDS. If the rustoleum has an excessive water contaminant then it could cause some problems so definitely worth the wait to follow the instructions and buy the proper reducer and then follow the insturctions they recommend for use direct to metal.

greenmoonshine 09-16-2010 09:58 PM

I think I am now convinced to not use the rustoleum and instead go with the Summit UP401 medium, its only $10 a quart so I think I will just get a couple and have one in reserve.
What exactly is "conventional" 2k epoxy? This epoxy primer i got is single stage 2 part (2k-primer/activator) so what does this rustoleum reducer work with besides the rustoleum primer?

deadbodyman 09-17-2010 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
My thinking was that once I get it down to bare metal where the rust is, the thinner epoxy will get down in the pitted areas left by the newly removed rust and lie flat in there causing it to seal better, then I can go back later and fill the pits with a light coat of filler or just use filler primer (depending on depth of pits).

rust o lium is toulene,dont use it ...you would just use the hardner and the epoxy on bare metal ...dont worry about the sealer until you paint,and then use a good quality "urethane" reducer only...

crashtech 09-17-2010 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaintKem
Definitely best to buy the reducer from Summit to be safe. Of the two you mentioned above the rustoleum blend you have listed above is actually better for conventional 2K epoxy. The wild card is water content which you won't find on the MSDS. If the rustoleum has an excessive water contaminant then it could cause some problems so definitely worth the wait to follow the instructions and buy the proper reducer and then follow the instructions they recommend for use direct to metal.

Thanks for your interesting contribution, and welcome! Are you a paint chemist?

Why would PPG recommend the use of DT reducer in their DP and DPLF epoxy if it contains unsuitable ingredients?

I will adjust my techniques and advice if standard urethane reducers are shown to be generally be unsuitable for epoxy.

I know I would not use any store bought acetone for mixing into coatings, as acetone is hydrophilic. If it doesn't have water in it when you buy it, it will eventually as it absorbs it from the air.

chevymike 09-17-2010 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
My thinking was that once I get it down to bare metal where the rust is, the thinner epoxy will get down in the pitted areas left by the newly removed rust and lie flat in there causing it to seal better, then I can go back later and fill the pits with a light coat of filler or just use filler primer (depending on depth of pits).

Based on the info from my Kustom Shop Epoxy primer, bare metal should be non reduced. It should be epoxy and hardener. Based on their info, you add the reducer to use it as a sealer, which is typically done over a painted surface, to seal it from any top coat done after the sealer. Kind of why it's called sealer.

Even at non reduced, it will lay fine in any pits but is not going to fill them. You will need to do that with a skim coat of filler. I'm a totally newbie at this but this is what I have learned from this site and many others I have researched.

deadbodyman 09-17-2010 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
I think I am now convinced to not use the rustoleum and instead go with the Summit UP401 medium, its only $10 a quart so I think I will just get a couple and have one in reserve.
What exactly is "conventional" 2k epoxy? This epoxy primer i got is single stage 2 part (2k-primer/activator) so what does this rustoleum reducer work with besides the rustoleum primer?

You can clean your greasy parts and your paint gun with it ,glue residue Etc ... but lacquer thinner is cheaper.
Lowes has little you can use for a car ...I've used some of the stuff from there when I run out but its way more expensive than my jobber but what are ya gonna do on a weekend ?? they have some sand paper ,aircraft stripper,lacquer thinner, fiber glass resin and mat,that are all pretty good...bondo ,but it really sucks,strainers and paint sticks but you have to buy them and they are free at the jobbers ...the primers by rust o lium arnt very good I would only use them on suspension parts ,but only in an emergency,if at all ,never on a body ....although their cold galvinizing compound in a rattle can makes a pretty good weld through primer....
I use a lot of epoxy and I wouldnt reduce it....not ever...I only reduce it as a sealer...
when I made all my air bag brackets one weekend..I had to use that primer so I could keep on going...I got the job done but I wished I waited ....

cyclopsblown34 09-17-2010 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadbodyman
You can clean your greasy parts and your paint gun with it ,glue residue Etc ... but lacquer thinner is cheaper.
Lowes has little you can use for a car ...I've used some of the stuff from there when I run out but its way more expensive than my jobber but what are ya gonna do on a weekend ?? they have some sand paper ,aircraft stripper,lacquer thinner, fiber glass resin and mat,that are all pretty good...bondo ,but it really sucks,strainers and paint sticks but you have to buy them and they are free at the jobbers ...the primers by rust o lium arnt very good I would only use them on suspension parts ,but only in an emergency,if at all ,never on a body ....although their cold galvinizing compound in a rattle can makes a pretty good weld through primer....
I use a lot of epoxy and I wouldnt reduce it....not ever...I only reduce it as a sealer...
when I made all my air bag brackets one weekend..I had to use that primer so I could keep on going...I got the job done but I wished I waited ....

x2 on the cold galvanizing compound.

deadbodyman 09-17-2010 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyclopsblown34
x2 on the cold galvanizing compound.

Ahh ,youve tried it...if I have something that isnt worth the time to use epoxy or cant wait for it to dry that stuff works great I dont buy any weld thru primer since I found this...I never thought weld thru was worth the price.

PaintKem 09-17-2010 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashtech
Thanks for your interesting contribution, and welcome! Are you a paint chemist?

Why would PPG recommend the use of DT reducer in their DP and DPLF epoxy if it contains unsuitable ingredients?

I will adjust my techniques and advice if standard urethane reducers are shown to be generally be unsuitable for epoxy.

I know I would not use any store bought acetone for mixing into coatings, as acetone is hydrophilic. If it doesn't have water in it when you buy it, it will eventually as it absorbs it from the air.

Yes, I have been blessed to be an automotive paint chemist and a hobby painter for many years now. It is a lot of fun to be part of this industry.

The PPG DT series reducer does have ingredients in it that are not strong solvents (called diluents when used in this manner) for epoxy or even most urethane resins for that matter. However, there are enough good solvents in there to keep everything in solution. The point I was making is that at face value the Rustoleum blend reported actually contains better solvents for epoxy than the PPG. As you and I both said the potential water content of the rustoleum reducer could be a problem but if it were managed properly by rustoleum would not be a problem. Acetone is indeed always a tough one to keep dry.

greenmoonshine 09-17-2010 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaintKem
Originally Posted by greenmoonshine
Well from the looks of it the ppg has a little more to it than the rustoleum
ppg lists,
1-METHOXY-2-PROPYL ACETATE
2-METHYLCYCLOHEXANE - POOR FOR EPOXY
3-TOLUENE
4-N-HEPTANE POOR FOR EPOXY
5-NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY
6-METHYL ETHYL KETONE
7-V.M. AND P. NAPHTHA POOR FOR EPOXY

rustoleum lists only,
1-Acetone - Excellent in Epoxy
2-Methyl n- Amyl Ketone - Excellent in Epoxy
3-Ethyl 3 -ethoxy propionate - Fair to good in epoxy

OK,........WOW :drunk: , I totally missed where you had listed what was good,fair,excellent and poor for epoxy :D , now your statement about the conventional 2k epoxy makes more sense :thumbup: I got a little lost for a moment, but what your saying is that the ingredients in the rustoleum reducer look good except for its possible and or exceptional water content due to the acetone.
Maybe I should have tried the rustoleum, oh well I have already ordered the Summit reducer, but now I guess I shouldn't use the reducer at all, well until I have laid down all the epoxy primer and ready for paint?


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