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Old 10-25-2006, 06:13 AM
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Swirl Marks and black foam

I painted my mustang nightmist(dark) metallic blue 10/14/06. Yesterday, took it out in sun after all the compounding and swirl removal stages and noticed SWIRL MARKS! It looks beautiful in the garage.

I sanded 1000, 1500, 2000. These are definitely swirls marks and not deep cuts.

I used all 3m Perfect It. White pad for extra cut, and additional white pad for swirl remover and the black foam for the glaze. I used micro fiber cloths and clean water in between. I used a Makita 9227 and didnt buff until dry.

Should I have used the black pad for the swirl remover? Is it too late to save the job? Should I be using micro fiber cloth and 3m swirl remover by hand in straight-line motion? Should I use 3000 grit on a DA and start over? Should I wait for it to cure longer or will that make the job harder?

I don't want to cover the swirls up with wax. I want to fix it.

In all sincerity from a plain steel 66 Mustang to clear coat...this website has answered everything along the way.

Thanks so much!

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Old 10-25-2006, 06:31 AM
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I get the same thing with the 3M product... it's not a bad product.. and your doing it 100% right.
Are you cleaning off your pad with a short nylon brush every so often?

Also...I found that the middle compound (not extra cut) tends to mask the wet sanding marks... It'll make it look good but once you final buff with fine compound or swirl remover it tends to show up.

That might be some of the trouble... I have that happen alot.. I just have to look deep into the finish to make sure I got it all.

Also... With the black pad try the dark color compound (black bottle) it's better than the perfect it stuff for dark colors... I didn't like the new glaze.
That old Imperial hand glaze still seems to work majic for me.

Hope some of that helps..?
~Scott
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Old 10-25-2006, 03:36 PM
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You need to apply the swirl remover by hand and in a straight line motion, and take it off in a straight line motion. Black is almost impossible to remove swirl marks from. The best you can hope for is a product that will mask them, but they eventually come back.

Vince
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:47 PM
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Biggest mistake people make buffing is the following:

First step using cutting pad and cutting compound, is not using enough speed and moving to fast and not letting the buffer do the work.
Proper speed will mean the paint is heated to 110-120 degrees.
Next mistake with this step is stopping before every wetsand scratch is out.
Once every scratch is out the next most important thing you will do is slow the buffer down maybe 10% and go over the panel until all your dry compound and hazy glaze from the compound is gone so it looks like you have washed the panel and dried it. This step is what removes swirl marks for good.

Next go to your medium pad and say 1500 compound (for comparison)
Slow the buffer down say 10-20% and here again let the buffer do the work and also again when done keep going over the panel until all the dried compound and glaze is gone and panel is perfectly clean.

At the end of this step you should not have ANY swirl marks and if it is everyday collision work that is your last step.

For the show jobs we go further of course.
I refuse to pay $100+ a gallon for 3m so I have no idea how it works and if that compound will not give the above results its time to fine a new system.

How to test your results?
If you think the swirl marks are gone then wash the panel with wax and grease remover, if swirls show up then you did not buff right and the swirls were filled with glaze and glaze will wear off in a week or two so you might as well find out now.

There is no black car that swirl marks cannot be eliminated with a two step.

Edit:
Here read this linc, this was written by Andy and Gus and these guys are about the best buffers you will ever find.
http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Easy%20buffing.htm
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:32 PM
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Barry is right on and the first I've seen mention the surface temp of the panel during buffing. At the right temp the paint buffs much easier. Yes cut with the coarse compound untill all the scratches are gone then wash the car and move to a finer grit compound and a clean pad. I finish up with a black pad and the nonfilling glaze (a 3M description that contradicts itself) I can't remember the part number. Then wash the car again. Finesse-it II by hand with a lot of elbow grease for the final step on the most deserving jobs. When you get it perfect let the car set for awhile before you put it into service-this lets the surface harden up. Also, some clears are much more scratch resistant than others-typical car wash scratches will haunt you with some clears while other clears will take quite a bit of abuse. If you cover the defects with glaze be prepared as it will wash off. After the car has cured up for 30 days apply a good wax like Zaino to protect the surface from those pesky light car wash type scratches.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:01 PM
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Here's one trick I saw in action: dust the area with corn starch while buffing.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:19 PM
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IF your using Perfect It III, That explains "why" your having trouble.It won't cut for nothing using a foam pad and like Barry said, Your not generating any heat.
I "prefer" Perfect It II Regular Cut and a wool pad. Then the Black waffle pad with the glaze.
You can try the III with a GOOD,non twisted wool pad. That just might get your swirls out for good.You want around 1500-1800 RPM initally then back it down as said earlier. Still going to be a LOT of buffing though with ANY compound/pad to get it RIGHT.

I've seen the new 3M Ultrafina swirl remover compound/pad work and it actually does remove the swirl's not fill them up,but it's more $$$ for another compound & pad.
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Old 10-26-2006, 05:47 AM
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Thanks so much for the insight. "Heat" was not in my vocab until now.

Just to clarify...I can still save the job right? I do not have to resand. Just go back to the compounds like you all said.... They are definitely swirl marks. It was painted 10/14/06 so I still have time left?

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Old 10-26-2006, 07:01 AM
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Should be able too. A lot of swirls come from trash being blown on the vehicle during buffing or on it to begin with so a good wash before is nice. Outside and the winds blowing,neighbor is mowing his yard.
A spray bottle with some distilled or filtered water helps too with just a squirt or 2 on the panel.
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Old 10-26-2006, 09:56 AM
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On really dark colors I usually do a hand polish last, that seems to
take care of it.
Doing it under the fluorescent lights of the garage seem to make
it easier to see the swirls and polish them out.
I also have a random orbital polisher by Porter Cable that really
polishes finer than a buffer. It has a 5" foam pad and is advertised
by Meguiars as the ultimate polisher. It does do a really good job for
clean-up type polishing and swirl removal.
The random orbital action really helps.
(Bondoking keeps borrowing it from me.)
It's around $150.00 on the net

http://www.autogeek.net/bupo.html

Last edited by jcclark; 10-26-2006 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 10-26-2006, 01:23 PM
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[QUOTE=jcclark]On really dark colors I usually do a hand polish last, that seems to
take care of it.
Doing it under the fluorescent lights of the garage seem to make
it easier to see the swirls and polish them out.
I also have a random orbital polisher by Porter Cable
It's around $150.00 on the net
QUOTE]

Or about $90 at Lowes.

Vince
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Old 10-26-2006, 01:31 PM
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Vince,

I take it that you don't use a rotary buffer at all? From all of the different posts I have read...

Use the random orbital with the swirl remover too or just for the final glaze..?? I'll go buy one if it makes a difference
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Old 10-26-2006, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hgufrin
Vince,

I take it that you don't use a rotary buffer at all? From all of the different posts I have read...

Use the random orbital with the swirl remover too or just for the final glaze..?? I'll go buy one if it makes a difference
To tell you the truth, I have been using a rotary buffer and a wool pad. I have waited longer than the 7 day window for buffing and the clear I am using (PPG2002) cures as hard as porcelin. The buffing is very hard using 3M Extra Cut buffing compound. I have learned to spend more time final wet sanding with 1500 and 2000, then the 4000 DA pad. Even at that I still see some sanding marks under fluorescent light. At first I was worried about removing too much clear and getting into the base, but this stuff is so hard I don't worry about it any longer.

Vince
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Old 10-26-2006, 10:30 PM
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I have to agree with Barry!

Basically, slow down. Be patient on every step. Don't move to the next step until you are really finished.

But, watch out with the "heat"! Some heat is good, yes. But, if you generate too much heat, very bad things can happen! And, once it starts to warm-up, it can get "hot", pretty fast sometimes.

Sounds like you are almost there!
Good Luck!

ps I use all 3m buffing products, including the dark polish and black pad to finish. I like them very much, and have great success with them (even black).
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