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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2005, 07:50 PM
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Break In

I have heard that engine break in especially on pistons rings is slowed down due to less friction with the synthetics on the cylinder walls whether this still stands true with exotic rings and technology advancements. and dont go swimming until 20 mins. after eating

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Old 06-15-2005, 08:37 PM
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I will post this copied with express written permission by the original author for public use.


Let me begin by saying that I am a T-1 Certified AMSOIL dealer. Although this reply may be long winded for some hopefully I can add some facts to the discussion regarding the use of diesel oil to break in a camshaft, the intended purpose of ZDP vs. zinc as an anti-wear agent and the similarities and differences between AMSOIL and Mobil 1.

First let me address the use of diesel oil as a break in oil on new flat tappet camshafts.

Diesel fuels tend to produce significantly higher levels of sulpher contaminate, water and soot during combustion. To combat this diesel oils typically have a more robust detergent/dispersant additive chemistry than oils intended for use in a gasoline engine. Also, as a general rule diesel oils do not contain friction modifiers. Because of this you may have seen some diesel oils recommended for use in motorcycle wet clutch applications.

In a gasoline engine undergoing a camshaft break in the additive chemistry of a diesel oil helps to produce some initial break in wear (lack of friction modifiers) on the cam and lifters while the high detergent/dispersant additives help suspend the wear metal being produced during break in until it can be captured by the oil filter.

ZDP and zinc

ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) or ZDDP (zinc diaryl-dithio phosphate) are additives that supply anti wear protection, prevent rust and corrosion and inhibit the oxidation of rust itself.

While many motor oils may contain a high level of zinc this does not necessarily dictate improved wear performance for two reasons:
1) The mere presence of zinc does not mean it is in the form of ZDP. In other forms zinc offers additional oxidation protection but little wear control.
2) Other factor’s such as an oil’s viscometrics and base stock can have a significant effect on wear control.

AMSOIL vs. Mobil 1

While both AMSOIL and Mobil 1 are rightfully considered synthetic oils there are differences in the base stock composition. The base stocks of motor oils are generally broken into the five categories below:

Group 1 base oils are petroleum derived and the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little uniformity.

Group II base oils, again petroleum derived, are common in mineral based motor oils. They have a fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation stability, wear protection and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity because they contain parrafin (wax) which at cold temperatures begins to thicken the oil to a point at which it will not flow.

Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of all mineral oil derived stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. By definition, they are considered a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic and semi-synthetic base oils.

Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are chemically engineered synthesized base stocks. PAO’s offer excellent stability, molecular uniformity, and hence improved performance.

Group V base oils, with few exceptions, are also chemically engineered stocks that do not fall into any of the categories previously mentioned.

Be aware that Synthetic Blends are combinations of Group II (petroleum oil) and Group III (highly refined petroleum oil) base oils. Because Group III base oils are considered Synthetics (even though they are refined petroleum oils) the addition of a Group III to a Group II oil can qualify the oil as a Synthetic Blend. Also be aware that there is no minimum required amount of Group III base oil to be labeled Synthetic Blend. These oils can contain as little as 2-3% of Group III base oils and still be labeled Synthetic Blends.

While AMSOIL is produced exclusively from Group IV base oils (PAO’s) Mobil 1 is produced from a combination of Group III and IV base oils. Both are legitimately referred to as Full Synthetic Motor Oils.

Group III base stocks outperform their conventional mineral (petroleum) oil counterparts in most all areas. However, they still suffer from purity and molecular uniformity drawbacks. Whereas the performance level of a given PAO synthetic is similar regardless of its manufacturer, performance of Group III stock can vary significantly between manufacturers.

AMSOIL’s Group IV PAO formulation will outperform Mobil 1’s formulation in the following areas. Although the test results below are comparing AMSOIL 10W-30 to Mobil 1 10W-30 I think they indicative of the results for the race formulations:

1) Superior Stability – The Group IV PAO’s have uniform molecular chains that are of the same size and weight unlike the Group III base oils that have some lighter fractions. Under high temperature conditions these lighter fractions will evaporate.

The NOACK Volatility Test determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions.

In a May 2003 NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D-5800) AMSOIL lost only 4.86% of its mass during the test while Mobil 1 Super Syn lost 8.92% of its mass.


2) Superior Oxidation Resisitance – The Superior Oxidation Stability of AMSOIL allows it to effectively resist the formations of engine deposits and sludge, keeping the engine running clean and efficient. It also resists thickening, maintaining its superior wear protection and lubricating properties and maximizing fuel efficiency.

In a May 2003 Thin-Film Oxidation test (ASTM D-4742) that measures the oxidation stability of lubricating oils AMSOIL 10W-30 had the highest induction time of all of the tested oils. In fact, AMSOIL did not reach its break point after 500 minutes of testing at which point the test was stopped. Mobil 1 Super Syn reached its break point at 397 minutes. Many other oils including synthetics reached their break point between 242-197 minutes.

3) Superior Wear Protection – AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants provide unsurpassed wear protection against engine wear. Equipment life is extended, and repairs, downtime and expenses are reduced.

The Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172) determines the wear protection of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This typically produces a wear scar that is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the protection provided by the lubricant. In the May 2003 test the AMSOIL Synthetic produced a wear scar of .40mm while the Mobil 1 Super Syn had a wear scar reading of .60mm.

With the improved stability, and oxidation resistance of AMSOIL you should also be able to get a significant increase in drain interval over the Mobil 1. In a racing environment the condition of the oil should be closely monitored via an oil analysis program and the examination of the interior of the oil filter. Although the cost of the Mobil 1 is less than the AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Racing Oil ($4.50/quart Mobil 1 vs. $6.70/quart AMSOIL Preferred Customer) the extended drain, superior stability, superior oxidation resistance and the superior wear protection make it very cost competitive.

Best Regards,
J.P. Karpowicz
HiTechLubricants.com
T-1 Certified AMSOIL Dealer
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:06 PM
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Ever done a redline vs amsoil test?
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Old 06-16-2005, 01:25 AM
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since this thread started i have been paying attention when in the parts store and the synthetics like mobil,lucas and amsoil have 5000,7500 and so on right on the lable so everyone can have it his or her way but there it is.when they all say the same thing maybe there is something to it.i'm sure they know more about oil than i do.
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Old 06-16-2005, 06:08 AM
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My brother-in-law was making fun of me for the amount of money I spent for Amsoil synthetic gear oil. I had him take the Suburban out with the old gear oil in it for a test drive. I then had him take it out after the change to the synthetic. Made a believer out of him. You can actually feel the difference.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2005, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneNova/406
since this thread started i have been paying attention when in the parts store and the synthetics like mobil,lucas and amsoil have 5000,7500 and so on right on the lable so everyone can have it his or her way but there it is.when they all say the same thing maybe there is something to it.i'm sure they know more about oil than i do.
If I remember correctly, isn't Mobil's 5000 and 7000 mile oil conventional oil?

Vince
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2005, 10:32 AM
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Opinions are like . . .

Well here is my two cents!
From all the data and testing I have done and read (Please help, I am an engineer trapped in a family of chemists!!) for street driven vehicles a full synthetic is the best policy. Is it necessary? No. If you plan on changing your oil every 3000 miles (with filter) there is no good reason you can not go with natural or blended oil. If the vehicle is going to sit for long(er) periods of time you may want to step up to a full synthetic. The reason I say this is not the molecule structure, but the additive package. Many of the full synthetics have a better additive package and will not break down over time. If you are worried about every last ounce of power you are going to have to do some heavy homework. At that point contact your local research chemist and have them formulate your own. (Not cheap!!) However, from what I have seen and read AMSOIL, Redline, and Royal Purple are at least in the same class. (although they might disagree) There is a lot of disagreement on this topic and a lot of information out there that contradicts itself. Even the "experts" I have talked to in both GM and DCX really can not give me the same answer.
Oh well, let the beatings begin!
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Old 06-16-2005, 10:41 AM
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Im supprised I havent seen it yet but no one has mentioned that it is not a good idea to run full synthetic in a high milage motor (100,000+ miles) that has run conventional motor oil for it whole life. Synthetic are usually "too good" for these motors and it usually ends up slipping through all the old seals in the motor and just causing a shat load of problems.
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Old 06-16-2005, 11:20 AM
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one word...

..AMSOIL..
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Old 06-16-2005, 03:39 PM
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More people buy oil who dont know anything about oils or motors then do people who have a vast knowledge of it. This is because most people are trying to save money by doing it themselfs rather then hotrodders looking for a better oil. So how do you market a more expensive oil and sell it to people who nothing about oil anyhow? say its better??? nahhh, prove its better on a tv infomercial?? nahhh, then what?? ohh.... tell them its got a longer service life that will sell it.. I say its bs..

I change mine every 3K miles no matter I use synthetic, conventional or corn oil
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2005, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsongrass1
I will post this copied with express written permission by the original author for public use.


Let me begin by saying that I am a T-1 Certified AMSOIL dealer. Although this reply may be long winded for some hopefully I can add some facts to the discussion regarding the use of diesel oil to break in a camshaft, the intended purpose of ZDP vs. zinc as an anti-wear agent and the similarities and differences between AMSOIL and Mobil 1.

First let me address the use of diesel oil as a break in oil on new flat tappet camshafts.

Diesel fuels tend to produce significantly higher levels of sulpher contaminate, water and soot during combustion. To combat this diesel oils typically have a more robust detergent/dispersant additive chemistry than oils intended for use in a gasoline engine. Also, as a general rule diesel oils do not contain friction modifiers. Because of this you may have seen some diesel oils recommended for use in motorcycle wet clutch applications.

In a gasoline engine undergoing a camshaft break in the additive chemistry of a diesel oil helps to produce some initial break in wear (lack of friction modifiers) on the cam and lifters while the high detergent/dispersant additives help suspend the wear metal being produced during break in until it can be captured by the oil filter.

ZDP and zinc

ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) or ZDDP (zinc diaryl-dithio phosphate) are additives that supply anti wear protection, prevent rust and corrosion and inhibit the oxidation of rust itself.

While many motor oils may contain a high level of zinc this does not necessarily dictate improved wear performance for two reasons:
1) The mere presence of zinc does not mean it is in the form of ZDP. In other forms zinc offers additional oxidation protection but little wear control.
2) Other factor’s such as an oil’s viscometrics and base stock can have a significant effect on wear control.

AMSOIL vs. Mobil 1

While both AMSOIL and Mobil 1 are rightfully considered synthetic oils there are differences in the base stock composition. The base stocks of motor oils are generally broken into the five categories below:

Group 1 base oils are petroleum derived and the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little uniformity.

Group II base oils, again petroleum derived, are common in mineral based motor oils. They have a fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation stability, wear protection and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity because they contain parrafin (wax) which at cold temperatures begins to thicken the oil to a point at which it will not flow.

Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of all mineral oil derived stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. By definition, they are considered a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic and semi-synthetic base oils.

Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are chemically engineered synthesized base stocks. PAO’s offer excellent stability, molecular uniformity, and hence improved performance.

Group V base oils, with few exceptions, are also chemically engineered stocks that do not fall into any of the categories previously mentioned.

Be aware that Synthetic Blends are combinations of Group II (petroleum oil) and Group III (highly refined petroleum oil) base oils. Because Group III base oils are considered Synthetics (even though they are refined petroleum oils) the addition of a Group III to a Group II oil can qualify the oil as a Synthetic Blend. Also be aware that there is no minimum required amount of Group III base oil to be labeled Synthetic Blend. These oils can contain as little as 2-3% of Group III base oils and still be labeled Synthetic Blends.

While AMSOIL is produced exclusively from Group IV base oils (PAO’s) Mobil 1 is produced from a combination of Group III and IV base oils. Both are legitimately referred to as Full Synthetic Motor Oils.

Group III base stocks outperform their conventional mineral (petroleum) oil counterparts in most all areas. However, they still suffer from purity and molecular uniformity drawbacks. Whereas the performance level of a given PAO synthetic is similar regardless of its manufacturer, performance of Group III stock can vary significantly between manufacturers.

AMSOIL’s Group IV PAO formulation will outperform Mobil 1’s formulation in the following areas. Although the test results below are comparing AMSOIL 10W-30 to Mobil 1 10W-30 I think they indicative of the results for the race formulations:

1) Superior Stability – The Group IV PAO’s have uniform molecular chains that are of the same size and weight unlike the Group III base oils that have some lighter fractions. Under high temperature conditions these lighter fractions will evaporate.

The NOACK Volatility Test determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions.

In a May 2003 NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D-5800) AMSOIL lost only 4.86% of its mass during the test while Mobil 1 Super Syn lost 8.92% of its mass.


2) Superior Oxidation Resisitance – The Superior Oxidation Stability of AMSOIL allows it to effectively resist the formations of engine deposits and sludge, keeping the engine running clean and efficient. It also resists thickening, maintaining its superior wear protection and lubricating properties and maximizing fuel efficiency.

In a May 2003 Thin-Film Oxidation test (ASTM D-4742) that measures the oxidation stability of lubricating oils AMSOIL 10W-30 had the highest induction time of all of the tested oils. In fact, AMSOIL did not reach its break point after 500 minutes of testing at which point the test was stopped. Mobil 1 Super Syn reached its break point at 397 minutes. Many other oils including synthetics reached their break point between 242-197 minutes.

3) Superior Wear Protection – AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants provide unsurpassed wear protection against engine wear. Equipment life is extended, and repairs, downtime and expenses are reduced.

The Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172) determines the wear protection of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This typically produces a wear scar that is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the protection provided by the lubricant. In the May 2003 test the AMSOIL Synthetic produced a wear scar of .40mm while the Mobil 1 Super Syn had a wear scar reading of .60mm.

With the improved stability, and oxidation resistance of AMSOIL you should also be able to get a significant increase in drain interval over the Mobil 1. In a racing environment the condition of the oil should be closely monitored via an oil analysis program and the examination of the interior of the oil filter. Although the cost of the Mobil 1 is less than the AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Racing Oil ($4.50/quart Mobil 1 vs. $6.70/quart AMSOIL Preferred Customer) the extended drain, superior stability, superior oxidation resistance and the superior wear protection make it very cost competitive.

Best Regards,
J.P. Karpowicz
HiTechLubricants.com
T-1 Certified AMSOIL Dealer
*************************************************

Although I have an oil back ground, the surest way to piss someone off is to state facts about oil, so I have a policy that I won't respond at all.

But I must say the above is mostly a crock of ******* put together from sales flyer's by someone that may sell oil but does not have a clue.
There are a few correct statements and the one that made me laugh the most was no "friction modifiers" in a diesel oil.
Sounds like the guy should go read the API requirements for the different symbols. like CD,CE etc.
That was pitifull.

Last edited by BarryK; 06-16-2005 at 04:04 PM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2005, 04:37 PM
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I can't afford amsoil but i tell you the one time i used it in an Rx7 it lasted forever. and i blew the motor on the next oil change. made me a believer...but there's always coewinquidinks.
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Old 06-16-2005, 07:06 PM
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Ya know, I use Mobil 1 in all of my engines but one. A '65 Ford F100 with a 240 I6. It has over 300,000 miles on it and will start and run without a problem. Granted you could start it by hand if you needed to but it still runs. It's never had synthetic oil in it. It has had a regular oil change every 2500 miles for 40 years now with nothing but Castrol GTX since I've owned it.

You might say that it would be in better shape if I had run synthetic in it from day one but I wasn't alive when it was new.

I like the protection the synthetic offers and the ability to run bearing clearance a little tighter than usual. I build my engines with the use of Mobil 1 0W40 as a part of the combination. Oil is just as important to performance as any other part, it must be considered before you buy and build.

If I built an engine with the same tolerances as that 240 had in '65, I'd stick with the regular stuff all over again based on that engines longevity with mineral based oil. Experience counts.

Use the oil that the engine was built to use. It's that simple.

Larry
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Old 06-17-2005, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Although I have an oil back ground, the surest way to piss someone off is to state facts about oil, so I have a policy that I won't respond at all.
I think you just did.


Quote:
But I must say the above is mostly a crock of ******* put together from sales flyer's by someone that may sell oil but does not have a clue.
I'll do what the cup guy's are doing, Ther R+D is second to none. 40 outa 50 teams are breaking in engines with Rotella diesel oil and running Mobil 1 full Syn oil 15-50 or 0-50 for restricted engines. It also what the top dirt teams are using. If it's good for them, it's good for me.
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Old 06-17-2005, 10:18 AM
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synthetic oils

having worked for a catterpillar dealer for some 30 years mostly with engine overhauls cat states do not extend oil changes no matter what oil you use. we found in extreme operating conditions the only thing synthetics did was increase ones cost. some extreme cold arias were the only exceptions wher cold starts wher improved withe syns. on gas engines i have found crane molley past on the lobes will insure propper breakin and regular change intervals will give good life to 90% of the engines out ther , save your money for gas and have fun cliff
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