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Synthetic oil??

13K views 39 replies 27 participants last post by  Rhansen 
#1 ·
What exactly is snythetic oil? is it any better than regular oil?
 
#2 ·
there's no comparison.you can tell by the price.regular oil is changed at 3000 miles.synthetic is 15,000.you just change the filter at 3000 mile intervals.on hot rod t.v. i watched them dyno a car with regular oil,then drained the engine,trans and rear end and used synthetic in all and dynoed again and gained 8 h.p..you get all those benefits plas its so much better for your moving parts too.
 
#5 ·
The biggest thing is that it is a little bit "slipperier", due to uniformity in the molecular structure. Picture it like this: dump a bag full of golf balls, baseballs, tennis balls, and soccer balls on the floor and roll a sheet of plywood across them. Then roll the same sheet of plywood over a dumped out bag of marbles. It rolls easier over the marbles because they are all the same size. As for 15,000 mile intervals, I don't believe it. Oil is oil, synthetic or not. It has certain properties that break down over time, and the harder you run, the faster they break down. IMHO, you can stretch your changes to maybe 6500 miles, but I wouldn't go too much more than that. I have torn down too many engines that ran only sythetic oil on the long changes that were toasted. Amsoil used to spout that stuff here, and got slapped. Mostly for claims about their two stroke oil, being able to be mixed at over 100:1. Guys were trying it in their racing sleds, because Amsoil was supposed to be a good name, and frying very expensive engines. And then Amsoil wouldn't honor their guarantee. I see now that their advertised oil change up here is 12000 km, which is only twice the recommended. At 4x the price, you're still losing money.
 
#6 ·
The principal advantage of synthetic over "naturall" oil is the better protection against friction, especially at temperature extremes. Synthetics flow better at extreme cold temps, yet provide better breakdown protection at temperatures that would boil off regular oils. As far as extended oil change intervals, it pays to bear in mind that either type of oil is subject to fuel, particle, moisture, and other contaminants. The only way to eliminate damage from these is to change the oil and filter. I personally never go more than 3000 miles on a change (I use Mobil 1 and Amsoil).

tom
 
#7 ·
GoneNova/406 said:
there's no comparison.you can tell by the price.regular oil is changed at 3000 miles.synthetic is 15,000.you just change the filter at 3000 mile intervals.on hot rod t.v. i watched them dyno a car with regular oil,then drained the engine,trans and rear end and used synthetic in all and dynoed again and gained 8 h.p..you get all those benefits plas its so much better for your moving parts too.

A true synthetic oil is just a man made oil with no impurities in it , as far as being better because it cost more well thats a loaded statement. IMO the reason that the syn oil's are better is due to the additive package thats in it.
I still think it should be changed at or around the 3,000 mile mark. I use just a good base oil and use a product made by BG its called MOA Its a very good additive package. I'm not sure that I can believe everything on Hot Rod TV, they don't give all info on the projects that they do so how can I (we) trust them on a product that they are being paid to advertise. I do think syn oil is a better product, just not as good as they (manufactures) say. Do I use it no! do I sell it! Yes if the customer asks for it.

Steve :welcome:
 
#9 ·
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
http://www.go-synthetic.com/409_000_Mack/409_000_mack.htm

Just a few interesting/entertaining reads.

I personally think Synthetic oil is the cats meow. After switching my rear, tranny, and engine fluids over to synthetic I could honestly feel the difference. With the amount of use sytnethic gets by professional automakers (comes stock in Porches, Corvettes, Hemi's, BMW's,etc) if there wasn't a large advantage these companies wouldn't bother and would probably rather cut costs.
 
#11 ·
Around here at the local Wally World, you get Valvoline at $15 per 5 quart jug. Or $20 for Mobil 1 full Syn. Mobil 1 being so much better the extra five bucks is worth it to me. Spending an extra 3 bucks on a Wix 51060R or 61 your oil changes now cost about 7 dollars more.
 
#12 ·
If your engine is in good operating condition you can extend your change intervals. Pull a sample and have a oil analysis done, it will let you know the wear metals, antifreeze etc. that are in your oil.
Just for fun put a quart of conventional and a quart of synthetic in the freezer for a couple of hours, then see how they pour. It will give you an idea what your engine is going through in the winter.
 
#13 ·
i personally would not go 15,000 miles myself but at the cost of full synthetic i sure as hell am not doing it at 3000 when it is so much better and designed for this.by the way the 15,000 miles is not me talking but quoting what people in the oil and motorsport industry say.some of you don't like to believe anything you see or here but if you don't want to listen to me that fine.i did a search and went to amsoil full syn. and there first syn. was 25,000 or 1 yr. full syn. 10-40.you can call them liars if you like.me,i think i'll pay attention to others expertise.do the leg work.
 
#14 ·
A quick history lesson may be in order. Synthetic oils were developed for use by the military. Primarily in jet engines that turn extremely high rpm with tremendous heat. They are capable of lubricating under very harsh conditions. Used by the military and in the aviation industry for years before finding their way into the auto industry synthetics can only be considered the best kept secret since sliced bread.

When converting from fossil oils to synthetics you need to consider a couple things. Synthetics will tend to leak in high mileage engines. This is because the molecules are smaller than fossil oils and will find their way into cracks in gaskets that normal oils can't get through. Also some people do not suggest you break in a new engine using synthetics. I'm not really sure where this comes from since several high $$$ European sports cars and some of Detroit's hottest iron come from the factory with synthetics. I've used them exclusively in every engine I've built in the last 10 years and they are all still on the road with no oil related failures. Although synthetics a little expensive, they're worth every penny IMHO anyway.
 
#15 ·
Belray for me thanks

I run belray superbike synthetic in my harley engins, trans, primary and forks I have been in bumper to bumper traffic and could hear conventional oil popping and boiling in other bikes but mine was fine, I also noticed that the tranny when shifted was much smoother from a clunk to an nice click. yea its about 8 bucks a quart but I service it myself and its still cheaper than having the dealer change my oil with the Harley dinosaur sludge.
thats just my thought on it I will never go back to convetional on my bike, My daily driver hoopty, POS grocery getting car I pam cooking spray, hair oil or whatever I can get my hands on well actually run cheap *** dollar store oil at 50 to 89 cents a quart and change it every 2500 Mi. so it depends on what its going into. The key In my opinion aws mentioned in previous posts is change it often as your environment or driving style dictates. :thumbup:
 
#16 ·
Break In

I have heard that engine break in especially on pistons rings is slowed down due to less friction with the synthetics on the cylinder walls whether this still stands true with exotic rings and technology advancements. and dont go swimming until 20 mins. after eating :embarrass
 
#17 ·
I will post this copied with express written permission by the original author for public use.


Let me begin by saying that I am a T-1 Certified AMSOIL dealer. Although this reply may be long winded for some hopefully I can add some facts to the discussion regarding the use of diesel oil to break in a camshaft, the intended purpose of ZDP vs. zinc as an anti-wear agent and the similarities and differences between AMSOIL and Mobil 1.

First let me address the use of diesel oil as a break in oil on new flat tappet camshafts.

Diesel fuels tend to produce significantly higher levels of sulpher contaminate, water and soot during combustion. To combat this diesel oils typically have a more robust detergent/dispersant additive chemistry than oils intended for use in a gasoline engine. Also, as a general rule diesel oils do not contain friction modifiers. Because of this you may have seen some diesel oils recommended for use in motorcycle wet clutch applications.

In a gasoline engine undergoing a camshaft break in the additive chemistry of a diesel oil helps to produce some initial break in wear (lack of friction modifiers) on the cam and lifters while the high detergent/dispersant additives help suspend the wear metal being produced during break in until it can be captured by the oil filter.

ZDP and zinc

ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) or ZDDP (zinc diaryl-dithio phosphate) are additives that supply anti wear protection, prevent rust and corrosion and inhibit the oxidation of rust itself.

While many motor oils may contain a high level of zinc this does not necessarily dictate improved wear performance for two reasons:
1) The mere presence of zinc does not mean it is in the form of ZDP. In other forms zinc offers additional oxidation protection but little wear control.
2) Other factor’s such as an oil’s viscometrics and base stock can have a significant effect on wear control.

AMSOIL vs. Mobil 1

While both AMSOIL and Mobil 1 are rightfully considered synthetic oils there are differences in the base stock composition. The base stocks of motor oils are generally broken into the five categories below:

Group 1 base oils are petroleum derived and the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little uniformity.

Group II base oils, again petroleum derived, are common in mineral based motor oils. They have a fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation stability, wear protection and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity because they contain parrafin (wax) which at cold temperatures begins to thicken the oil to a point at which it will not flow.

Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of all mineral oil derived stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. By definition, they are considered a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic and semi-synthetic base oils.

Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are chemically engineered synthesized base stocks. PAO’s offer excellent stability, molecular uniformity, and hence improved performance.

Group V base oils, with few exceptions, are also chemically engineered stocks that do not fall into any of the categories previously mentioned.

Be aware that Synthetic Blends are combinations of Group II (petroleum oil) and Group III (highly refined petroleum oil) base oils. Because Group III base oils are considered Synthetics (even though they are refined petroleum oils) the addition of a Group III to a Group II oil can qualify the oil as a Synthetic Blend. Also be aware that there is no minimum required amount of Group III base oil to be labeled Synthetic Blend. These oils can contain as little as 2-3% of Group III base oils and still be labeled Synthetic Blends.

While AMSOIL is produced exclusively from Group IV base oils (PAO’s) Mobil 1 is produced from a combination of Group III and IV base oils. Both are legitimately referred to as Full Synthetic Motor Oils.

Group III base stocks outperform their conventional mineral (petroleum) oil counterparts in most all areas. However, they still suffer from purity and molecular uniformity drawbacks. Whereas the performance level of a given PAO synthetic is similar regardless of its manufacturer, performance of Group III stock can vary significantly between manufacturers.

AMSOIL’s Group IV PAO formulation will outperform Mobil 1’s formulation in the following areas. Although the test results below are comparing AMSOIL 10W-30 to Mobil 1 10W-30 I think they indicative of the results for the race formulations:

1) Superior Stability – The Group IV PAO’s have uniform molecular chains that are of the same size and weight unlike the Group III base oils that have some lighter fractions. Under high temperature conditions these lighter fractions will evaporate.

The NOACK Volatility Test determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions.

In a May 2003 NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D-5800) AMSOIL lost only 4.86% of its mass during the test while Mobil 1 Super Syn lost 8.92% of its mass.


2) Superior Oxidation Resisitance – The Superior Oxidation Stability of AMSOIL allows it to effectively resist the formations of engine deposits and sludge, keeping the engine running clean and efficient. It also resists thickening, maintaining its superior wear protection and lubricating properties and maximizing fuel efficiency.

In a May 2003 Thin-Film Oxidation test (ASTM D-4742) that measures the oxidation stability of lubricating oils AMSOIL 10W-30 had the highest induction time of all of the tested oils. In fact, AMSOIL did not reach its break point after 500 minutes of testing at which point the test was stopped. Mobil 1 Super Syn reached its break point at 397 minutes. Many other oils including synthetics reached their break point between 242-197 minutes.

3) Superior Wear Protection – AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants provide unsurpassed wear protection against engine wear. Equipment life is extended, and repairs, downtime and expenses are reduced.

The Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172) determines the wear protection of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This typically produces a wear scar that is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the protection provided by the lubricant. In the May 2003 test the AMSOIL Synthetic produced a wear scar of .40mm while the Mobil 1 Super Syn had a wear scar reading of .60mm.

With the improved stability, and oxidation resistance of AMSOIL you should also be able to get a significant increase in drain interval over the Mobil 1. In a racing environment the condition of the oil should be closely monitored via an oil analysis program and the examination of the interior of the oil filter. Although the cost of the Mobil 1 is less than the AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Racing Oil ($4.50/quart Mobil 1 vs. $6.70/quart AMSOIL Preferred Customer) the extended drain, superior stability, superior oxidation resistance and the superior wear protection make it very cost competitive.

Best Regards,
J.P. Karpowicz
HiTechLubricants.com
T-1 Certified AMSOIL Dealer
 
#19 ·
since this thread started i have been paying attention when in the parts store and the synthetics like mobil,lucas and amsoil have 5000,7500 and so on right on the lable so everyone can have it his or her way but there it is.when they all say the same thing maybe there is something to it.i'm sure they know more about oil than i do.
 
#20 ·
My brother-in-law was making fun of me for the amount of money I spent for Amsoil synthetic gear oil. I had him take the Suburban out with the old gear oil in it for a test drive. I then had him take it out after the change to the synthetic. Made a believer out of him. You can actually feel the difference.
 
#21 ·
GoneNova/406 said:
since this thread started i have been paying attention when in the parts store and the synthetics like mobil,lucas and amsoil have 5000,7500 and so on right on the lable so everyone can have it his or her way but there it is.when they all say the same thing maybe there is something to it.i'm sure they know more about oil than i do.
If I remember correctly, isn't Mobil's 5000 and 7000 mile oil conventional oil?

Vince
 
#22 ·
Opinions are like . . .

Well here is my two cents!
From all the data and testing I have done and read (Please help, I am an engineer trapped in a family of chemists!!) for street driven vehicles a full synthetic is the best policy. Is it necessary? No. If you plan on changing your oil every 3000 miles (with filter) there is no good reason you can not go with natural or blended oil. If the vehicle is going to sit for long(er) periods of time you may want to step up to a full synthetic. The reason I say this is not the molecule structure, but the additive package. Many of the full synthetics have a better additive package and will not break down over time. If you are worried about every last ounce of power you are going to have to do some heavy homework. At that point contact your local research chemist and have them formulate your own. (Not cheap!!) However, from what I have seen and read AMSOIL, Redline, and Royal Purple are at least in the same class. (although they might disagree) There is a lot of disagreement on this topic and a lot of information out there that contradicts itself. Even the "experts" I have talked to in both GM and DCX really can not give me the same answer.
Oh well, let the beatings begin!
 
#23 ·
Im supprised I havent seen it yet but no one has mentioned that it is not a good idea to run full synthetic in a high milage motor (100,000+ miles) that has run conventional motor oil for it whole life. Synthetic are usually "too good" for these motors and it usually ends up slipping through all the old seals in the motor and just causing a shat load of problems.
 
#25 ·
More people buy oil who dont know anything about oils or motors then do people who have a vast knowledge of it. This is because most people are trying to save money by doing it themselfs rather then hotrodders looking for a better oil. So how do you market a more expensive oil and sell it to people who nothing about oil anyhow? say its better??? nahhh, prove its better on a tv infomercial?? nahhh, then what?? ohh.... tell them its got a longer service life that will sell it.. I say its bs..

I change mine every 3K miles no matter I use synthetic, conventional or corn oil
 
#26 · (Edited)
johnsongrass1 said:
I will post this copied with express written permission by the original author for public use.


Let me begin by saying that I am a T-1 Certified AMSOIL dealer. Although this reply may be long winded for some hopefully I can add some facts to the discussion regarding the use of diesel oil to break in a camshaft, the intended purpose of ZDP vs. zinc as an anti-wear agent and the similarities and differences between AMSOIL and Mobil 1.

First let me address the use of diesel oil as a break in oil on new flat tappet camshafts.

Diesel fuels tend to produce significantly higher levels of sulpher contaminate, water and soot during combustion. To combat this diesel oils typically have a more robust detergent/dispersant additive chemistry than oils intended for use in a gasoline engine. Also, as a general rule diesel oils do not contain friction modifiers. Because of this you may have seen some diesel oils recommended for use in motorcycle wet clutch applications.

In a gasoline engine undergoing a camshaft break in the additive chemistry of a diesel oil helps to produce some initial break in wear (lack of friction modifiers) on the cam and lifters while the high detergent/dispersant additives help suspend the wear metal being produced during break in until it can be captured by the oil filter.

ZDP and zinc

ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) or ZDDP (zinc diaryl-dithio phosphate) are additives that supply anti wear protection, prevent rust and corrosion and inhibit the oxidation of rust itself.

While many motor oils may contain a high level of zinc this does not necessarily dictate improved wear performance for two reasons:
1) The mere presence of zinc does not mean it is in the form of ZDP. In other forms zinc offers additional oxidation protection but little wear control.
2) Other factor’s such as an oil’s viscometrics and base stock can have a significant effect on wear control.

AMSOIL vs. Mobil 1

While both AMSOIL and Mobil 1 are rightfully considered synthetic oils there are differences in the base stock composition. The base stocks of motor oils are generally broken into the five categories below:

Group 1 base oils are petroleum derived and the least refined of all of the groups. They are usually a mix of different hydrocarbon chains with little uniformity.

Group II base oils, again petroleum derived, are common in mineral based motor oils. They have a fair to good performance in the areas of volatility, oxidation stability, wear protection and flash/fire points. They have only fair performance in areas such as pour point and cold crank viscosity because they contain parrafin (wax) which at cold temperatures begins to thicken the oil to a point at which it will not flow.

Group III base oils are subjected to the highest level of refining of all mineral oil derived stocks. Although not chemically engineered, they offer improved performance in a wide range of areas as well as good molecular uniformity and stability. By definition, they are considered a synthesized material and can be used in the production of synthetic and semi-synthetic base oils.

Group IV are polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are chemically engineered synthesized base stocks. PAO’s offer excellent stability, molecular uniformity, and hence improved performance.

Group V base oils, with few exceptions, are also chemically engineered stocks that do not fall into any of the categories previously mentioned.

Be aware that Synthetic Blends are combinations of Group II (petroleum oil) and Group III (highly refined petroleum oil) base oils. Because Group III base oils are considered Synthetics (even though they are refined petroleum oils) the addition of a Group III to a Group II oil can qualify the oil as a Synthetic Blend. Also be aware that there is no minimum required amount of Group III base oil to be labeled Synthetic Blend. These oils can contain as little as 2-3% of Group III base oils and still be labeled Synthetic Blends.

While AMSOIL is produced exclusively from Group IV base oils (PAO’s) Mobil 1 is produced from a combination of Group III and IV base oils. Both are legitimately referred to as Full Synthetic Motor Oils.

Group III base stocks outperform their conventional mineral (petroleum) oil counterparts in most all areas. However, they still suffer from purity and molecular uniformity drawbacks. Whereas the performance level of a given PAO synthetic is similar regardless of its manufacturer, performance of Group III stock can vary significantly between manufacturers.

AMSOIL’s Group IV PAO formulation will outperform Mobil 1’s formulation in the following areas. Although the test results below are comparing AMSOIL 10W-30 to Mobil 1 10W-30 I think they indicative of the results for the race formulations:

1) Superior Stability – The Group IV PAO’s have uniform molecular chains that are of the same size and weight unlike the Group III base oils that have some lighter fractions. Under high temperature conditions these lighter fractions will evaporate.

The NOACK Volatility Test determines the evaporation loss of lubricants in high temperature service. The more motor oils vaporize, the thicker and heavier they become, contributing to poor circulation, reduced fuel economy and increased oil consumption, wear and emissions.

In a May 2003 NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D-5800) AMSOIL lost only 4.86% of its mass during the test while Mobil 1 Super Syn lost 8.92% of its mass.


2) Superior Oxidation Resisitance – The Superior Oxidation Stability of AMSOIL allows it to effectively resist the formations of engine deposits and sludge, keeping the engine running clean and efficient. It also resists thickening, maintaining its superior wear protection and lubricating properties and maximizing fuel efficiency.

In a May 2003 Thin-Film Oxidation test (ASTM D-4742) that measures the oxidation stability of lubricating oils AMSOIL 10W-30 had the highest induction time of all of the tested oils. In fact, AMSOIL did not reach its break point after 500 minutes of testing at which point the test was stopped. Mobil 1 Super Syn reached its break point at 397 minutes. Many other oils including synthetics reached their break point between 242-197 minutes.

3) Superior Wear Protection – AMSOIL Synthetic Lubricants provide unsurpassed wear protection against engine wear. Equipment life is extended, and repairs, downtime and expenses are reduced.

The Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172) determines the wear protection of a lubricant. Three metal balls are clamped together and covered with test lubricant, while a rotating fourth ball is pressed against them in sliding contact. This typically produces a wear scar that is measured and recorded. The smaller the average wear scar, the better the protection provided by the lubricant. In the May 2003 test the AMSOIL Synthetic produced a wear scar of .40mm while the Mobil 1 Super Syn had a wear scar reading of .60mm.

With the improved stability, and oxidation resistance of AMSOIL you should also be able to get a significant increase in drain interval over the Mobil 1. In a racing environment the condition of the oil should be closely monitored via an oil analysis program and the examination of the interior of the oil filter. Although the cost of the Mobil 1 is less than the AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Racing Oil ($4.50/quart Mobil 1 vs. $6.70/quart AMSOIL Preferred Customer) the extended drain, superior stability, superior oxidation resistance and the superior wear protection make it very cost competitive.

Best Regards,
J.P. Karpowicz
HiTechLubricants.com
T-1 Certified AMSOIL Dealer
*************************************************

Although I have an oil back ground, the surest way to piss someone off is to state facts about oil, so I have a policy that I won't respond at all.

But I must say the above is mostly a crock of S*** put together from sales flyer's by someone that may sell oil but does not have a clue.
There are a few correct statements and the one that made me laugh the most was no "friction modifiers" in a diesel oil.
Sounds like the guy should go read the API requirements for the different symbols. like CD,CE etc.
That was pitifull.
 
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