Tap and die set questions - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Garage - Tools
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2009, 07:11 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Wow....I want the one on the left.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2009, 08:32 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
The Hanson is a good set, a very good set for the money and for most home or small shop type work they will work quite nicely. Hanson is not top of the line however and there are better sets out there but be prepared to spend some money for them if that is what you need. These tools are much like anything else, if they are part of the tools you make your living with then spend the money for top notch stuff otherwise something like Hanson will work great for average use and will be a lot cheaper. In either case avoid the cheapo Chinese junk, don't even consider it at any cost!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2009, 08:44 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 595 Times in 545 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixdogs
Wow....I want the one on the left.
lol The set is WAY older than I am, still in great shape. Will literally last a lifetime- and then some!

But the little Hansen set gets its fair share of use and has been a very good set, all in all.

The HF black oxide finished taps and the dies that goes w/them are to be avoided, the threads on the taps have burrs so bad that if used w/o dressing them first, the threaded hole would have to be all but unusable!

The dies aren't a whole lot better, and the die wrench is cast metal and a total p os.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2009, 08:55 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back toying with the 95 301T
Posts: 293
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
first of all you shouldn't be chasing threads on a bolt with a die , a bolts thread is rolled not cut and running a die over it will cut out the root which is the strong point in the bolt and create a large set of stress risers and allow the bolt to snap ( not a good thing especially in a suspension situation ) , wire wheeling is a proper way or a thread chaser set as they cut the die so it doesn't touch the root and is larger than the crests also they are classed for a looser fit as to not alter the material on the bolts threads just clean out the muck and such . a set from sears is around 99 bucks and it has both sae and metric threads and hole chasers too . the same set is sold by snapon and astro .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 02:58 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: central Ohio
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy
first of all you shouldn't be chasing threads on a bolt with a die , a bolts thread is rolled not cut and running a die over it will cut out the root which is the strong point in the bolt and create a large set of stress risers and allow the bolt to snap ( not a good thing especially in a suspension situation ) , wire wheeling is a proper way or a thread chaser set as they cut the die so it doesn't touch the root and is larger than the crests also they are classed for a looser fit as to not alter the material on the bolts threads just clean out the muck and such . a set from sears is around 99 bucks and it has both sae and metric threads and hole chasers too . the same set is sold by snapon and astro .
This is a very good point I had all but forgotten about. It's actually easier for me to use the wire wheel too. Guess I really did need all those brain cells the beer killed.
I'm a small time hobbyist and would like to build something every year. I have a Hanson metric set that worked OK for me and had planned to buy an SAE set soon. Maybe Hanson will be good enough but I am going to look into a better set. I'm 61 so that "lifetime of use" thing may not be all that important.
Stupid question is--do I look for them on Amazon or NAPA or ?.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 08:06 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 946 Times in 846 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy
first of all you shouldn't be chasing threads on a bolt with a die , a bolts thread is rolled not cut and running a die over it will cut out the root which is the strong point in the bolt and create a large set of stress risers and allow the bolt to snap ( not a good thing especially in a suspension situation ) , wire wheeling is a proper way or a thread chaser set as they cut the die so it doesn't touch the root and is larger than the crests also they are classed for a looser fit as to not alter the material on the bolts threads just clean out the muck and such . a set from sears is around 99 bucks and it has both sae and metric threads and hole chasers too . the same set is sold by snapon and astro .
Isn't that over thinking this a bit? Outside of some super high stress areas I can't imagine this being an issue.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 05:03 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Actually it is not stretching it at all and a die can damage bolts a lot more than most people might think. Also cutting threads farther up on the bolt is a real no-no and should never be done on any bolt from a grade 5 or higher, a bolt with cut threads like you get with a die is not nearly as strong as a bolt with rolled threads. A grade 8 bolt that has had the threads lengthened with a thread cutting die should no longer be considered as a grade 8 and just chasing the threads with a die does make a difference also.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 10:37 PM
Member
 
Last wiki edit: Window removal and installation Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: SC
Age: 51
Posts: 261
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I mentioned earlier how you can pretty much waste a bolt by recutting the threads with a thread cutting die. I know you can because I have surely done it.
Wire wheel is OK for cleaning bolts but does nothing for slightly damaged threads, or for nuts. Rethreaders are "dull" looking. They don't cut the threads, they more push them back into position. On very badly damged threads they will remove some material but I have yet to see the looseness you can get trying to use regular taps and dies.
I bought a set of the ultra cheap Chinese tap and die sets once. They actually damaged existing threads and couldn't cut decent threads in billet aluminum. The dies made pretty cool slingshot ammo though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:58 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back toying with the 95 301T
Posts: 293
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Isn't that over thinking this a bit? Outside of some super high stress areas I can't imagine this being an issue.

Brian
no , I don't like to attend funerals for freinds or hear about deaths or somone wiping out there $$$car because of a $1 bolt, a bolt sees alot of stress in its use and if you see how we test them you would be amazed at the amount of stress they see in use and thats just putting them on with a standard wrench not a impact proper bolt usage is critical , in the nuke field and airline industry we "float tested* " them for that reason . I bought chasers from Sears , Or autobodytoolmart.com if you want the big bucks try MSC Direct .

* float test = throw them in a lake, if they float we reuse them otherwise we replace them .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 08:11 AM
Gear~head's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Elora, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 27
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I haven' read everyone elses suggestions, so this may echo someone elses thoughts;
Personally I think those cheapie sets are junk. I do have one, but for the remainder of my tapping needs, I spent good money on Starrett handles and buy individual taps from an industrial supply house. Fowler is cheaper but still decent. What about searching e-bay for a used "machine shop quality" set? if any are damaged, you can replace them if you need too...some sizes you may never use anyway
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 09:56 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 946 Times in 846 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpy
no , I don't like to attend funerals for freinds or hear about deaths or somone wiping out there $$$car because of a $1 bolt, a bolt sees alot of stress in its use and if you see how we test them you would be amazed at the amount of stress they see in use and thats just putting them on with a standard wrench not a impact proper bolt usage is critical , in the nuke field and airline industry we "float tested* " them for that reason . I bought chasers from Sears , Or autobodytoolmart.com if you want the big bucks try MSC Direct .

* float test = throw them in a lake, if they float we reuse them otherwise we replace them .
Like I said, other than a FEW bolts in the suspension most on a car are certainly not doing what they do in the "nuke or airline" placement.

Like I said, you are over-thinking this.

I understand what you are talking about and never thought about it frankly, I will give it SERIOUS RESPECT when working on serious components, you bet your life I will, thank you. But the rest of the fender bolts, carburator, bumper bolts and the like I'll clean up the threads with a tap and die with out any worry.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 10:25 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Like I said, other than a FEW bolts in the suspension most on a car are certainly not doing what they do in the "nuke or airline" placement.

Like I said, you are over-thinking this.

I understand what you are talking about and never thought about it frankly, I will give it SERIOUS RESPECT when working on serious components, you bet your life I will, thank you. But the rest of the fender bolts, carburator, bumper bolts and the like I'll clean up the threads with a tap and die with out any worry.

Brian


For non-critical bolts this is certainly a non-issue but for things like headbolts, suspension, drivetrain, etc it can make a difference. The real problem starts when a critical bolt is modified by rethreading farther onto the shank, this problem is bad enough when using a sharp die but it is much worse if an old dull die is used. However just the opposite is usually the case when just straightening the threads on a bolt with a die and a dull die will most times just repair the threads without cutting into the bolt itself. A sharp die will usually undercut the existing threads somewhat and leave tiny rips and jagged edges along with a sharp V notch in the bottom of the thread groove instead of the smooth bottom with more radius that it would have with the rolled threads. This can make all the difference in a high stress, high torque application but as you point out it is of no concern at all in lesser applications.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 10:54 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 595 Times in 545 Posts
I believe the rash of stripped head bolt holes (there have been like a half a dozen recently, just here. This amounts to thousands unreported IMO) can be a result of overzealous "cleaning" of the threads (per every book out there- except not all explain the taps used to clean vs. taps used to tap).

If a bolt won't clean up on my wire wheel, it gets tossed in favor of a new or good used one. Unless I was in dire straits or the fastener was a specialty item that couldn't be easily replaced until later, there is no need (nor economy) in f ing w/bad bolts, anyway, IMHO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 02:49 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,908
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I believe the rash of stripped head bolt holes (there have been like a half a dozen recently, just here. This amounts to thousands unreported IMO) can be a result of overzealous "cleaning" of the threads (per every book out there- except not all explain the taps used to clean vs. taps used to tap).

If a bolt won't clean up on my wire wheel, it gets tossed in favor of a new or good used one. Unless I was in dire straits or the fastener was a specialty item that couldn't be easily replaced until later, there is no need (nor economy) in f ing w/bad bolts, anyway, IMHO.

A very common sense approach and just plain good advice!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-05-2009, 04:14 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: back toying with the 95 301T
Posts: 293
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
when I worked part time at a body shop we would pitch the old bolts used for panels and fenders and if they didn't offer replacements for them we would clean and reuse them ( we did restorations of cars from the 30's-70's) as they where the correct marking ones , as for a bumper bolt that would fall under the critical area as during a impact it will see a shear load and if it where to fail well what was the purpose of having it there to begin with ?? as for reuse of a fastner there is nothing more annoying than to have one tweek a panel when the threads seize or having it snap off and you hit the panel especially after heating and banging on it for 4 days trying to get it close to new from being a ball of tinfoil.

as for buying used taps/dies most industry people get rid of them ( on unsuspecting people ) when they are dull and not worth resharpening ( unless it a going out of business sale ) and then they do more damage to parts than a cheap new one will , I buy Starett , Ford tool ( no relation to Ford Motor co.) , Fowler , Hansons, and the usa made ones from MSC , get a Machinists book or google it on the web and read on how to read the classing of a die/tap its a good peice of info to have when using /purchasing them and what the fit classes are used for . and a cheap one will snap as well as a expensive one if used improperly ,ask my kid .... .arrggh ..

beside ATF , Or 3and 1 , what type of tap lubes do you guys use , I LIke tap magic its light and easy to remove , bad point is is expensive .

Last edited by stimpy; 12-05-2009 at 04:21 PM. Reason: what type of tap lube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Garage - Tools posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tap and Die sets??? wacko Garage - Tools 10 01-23-2009 05:04 PM
Tap and die pallidin Introduce Yourself 5 09-21-2008 09:12 PM
Tap & Die sxcorpio Garage - Tools 2 04-26-2007 08:28 AM
tap & die sxcorpio Introduce Yourself 2 04-24-2007 09:17 AM
using a tap and die set stea General Rodding Tech 10 07-03-2004 07:40 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.