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Old 12-20-2008, 04:34 PM
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tcp global paint

the hot rodding club is a HOBBY not big business. this country right now is in the tolet. i read some of the remarks made about buying cheaper paint & i can't believe this is the hobby i got into 50 years ago. a member of a club i belong to hit the nail on the head. he said if he had 5000 to spend he would it into the motor not into paint. some of these high powered painters need to get into the real world. alot of people have put there hobby on hold so they can buy FOOD. remember this is a hobby!!!!!! thanks jim

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Old 12-20-2008, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counntryboy
...some of these high powered painters need to get into the real world.
Under normal circumstances I probably would have been in your corner on this one. However, being a hobbyist who is right now in the middle of attempting my own body prep and paint work (with TCP Global paints BTW), I've got to say if I were doing this by the hour I'd have to charge a small fortune. The labor hours are incredible.

The problem as I see it is that we hot rodders have come to expect a near perfect, mirror like, foot deep paint job at the same price we were paying for a mediocre lacquer job 30 years ago. If you are willing to accept a lot less than perfection then I believe painters would be glad to give you a budget price...provided you never tell ANYONE who painted the vehicle.

Painters, like other skilled craftsmen, have a reputation out there on the line. Every car they do is like a roving billboard. One bad one and everybody at the car shows sees it. And before long, the painter no longer has work coming in the door.

I think once a person takes a whack at laying down their own show quality paint job, they begin to understand why painting prices have gone off the Ricketier Scale.
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:47 PM
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There is nothing really wrong with saving a few bucks on paint, within reason. But if what you use is going to cost time, be a hassle to use, or end up with more redo's or coats to get coverage, and less longevity, how much are you really saving using it?

I found spi clear and prospray base to be a pretty good combination (but haven't used a real lot yet) that still give quality results and are easy to work with, but will save a few bucks. Nason clear and utech products not all that bad.
But I spent a lot of time and years blowing on omni and limco base and clears if using a cheaper product, and not being unhappy with them at times , before I experimented with others and found out about the spi and prospray products from others that visit here and the spi site,

Some of the cheap lines you find out you really do get what you pay for, with things like slow drying times, poor color match, less vivid color, or more hassles or prone to problems if you don't allow plenty of flash time and know how to work with them. Some colors in low cost enamel based basecoats are down right ridiculous how much you have to blow on if you are trying to cover a primer spot, and those added coats could lead to other problems.

If a cheaper paint is going to cause more problems and potential redo's, less predictable results, what do you think they will want to use when there name and reputation is on the line? There are still some who will use less expensive materials and try to find a way to save someone a few bucks, as long as expectations are understood and inline, or do work on the side for a little extra cash or believe it or not,fun, and with the lower overhead can work a little cheaper.

As far as costs, if you never done the work and truely understand the time involved and material, equiptment, regulations, training and overhead costs a typical legit shop has, I could see how you might think its too expensive, or take it personally if some place isn't really interested in working on some rust bucket mini van.

Bodyshops are no different then any other profession or someone trying to make a living, they like to eat and get paid for the work they do, but do often enough get someone trying to get free work out of them or have little respect for there trade and knowledge, from the insurance company to the self paying customer.

Do you ask your doctor if he could cut some costs or corners, do it a litle faster or use a little cheaper materials to save you a few bucks when treating you?

Paint jobs are not cheap anymore for any kind of decent results, and material prices have continued to skyrocket with constant stricter regulations to be met, from only 15 years ago. Believe it or not, in 1991 when I painted a car in school, the ppg dbc base, dcu 2020 clear and primer came to under 200 bucks. Now a gallon of good clear can run quite a bit more then that alone.

Even using a cheaper line to save a few bucks, for just the primers, base and clear, activators and solvents you can easily enough reach a grand, not to mention all the other supplies. cleaners, compounds and pads, sandpaper,ect and that are burned up. Too many see maacos ads and think because they pay some teenager to quickly run over what they can with a scuff pad in 20 minutes, and blow some low cost bulk paint they get over dirt, trim and windows for a few hundred, thats what a paint job should cost.

Many who actually tackle doing there own paint, bodywork, and all the tedious sanding and prep finally start to have a new respect for the work, knowledge involved and gained through years of work, and the time and patience to produce a paint job thats nearly flawless and like a mirror, straight and has good panel alignment and gaps, and look at their material bill, better understand why quotes can be so high.

Last edited by kenseth17; 12-20-2008 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:25 AM
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I'm attempting to do the body and paint on my malibu now and have nothing but respect for the guys who do this for a living.It seems to take forever, blocking, sanding etc. I would have charged me a lot of money for this 8 hrs on one panel is nothing.That is why I'm going with good paint no way do I want to do this over.I know the owner he expects more than the body guy can do.(yes I think I have a split personality I'll check with me to make sure LOL)
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Old 12-21-2008, 08:46 AM
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I have not painted in a while, but when my Bud and I were going strong, we did 14 or 15 vehicles. He was a better prep and painter than I, but he squeezed his nickles harder than me. He used the cheapest he could find and covered the least he could, in his mind, get by with. I used DuPont, PPG, and other higher end products. Vehicles he and I painted about the same time are day and night different after a few years of wear and tear. The cheaper paint jobs are needing a lot of attention while mine all still look new. My vehicles have 10 times the mileage on them as well.
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:34 AM
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Understand the cost of running a business

Complaining about the cost of what a quality painter has to charge is really being nieve about the cost of running a business. Its just staggering, where do you start.

When you go to the painter, (Or any contractor) you are asking them to place a bet. bet on labor, materials and overhead and TIME.

labor includes, FICA, FUDA, SUDA Taxes, how about health, vacations holidays this adds up to at least 50% to 75% on top of wages.

Facilities and equipment, cost to rent or buy and insure (look arond any shop)

General and administrative,insurance, lights,phones, computers, Warranty and then the labor to do business management.

Materials pick your poison (or paint system).

Now when we do the job at home, the entire cost structure changes

Then how would one factor in the Reasonable Owner who really cant see that well has a great attitude, knows that perfection doesnt exist. Versus the unreasonable entitled obcessive compulsive who will crawl along a rocker panel with a flashlight and magnifying glass demanding repaints when they find a little flaw. Thats the Bet!

So a paint job adds up to 10K, no surprise there, done any home remodeling or building lately?
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by counntryboy
the hot rodding club is a HOBBY not big business. this country right now is in the tolet. i read some of the remarks made about buying cheaper paint & i can't believe this is the hobby i got into 50 years ago. a member of a club i belong to hit the nail on the head. he said if he had 5000 to spend he would it into the motor not into paint. some of these high powered painters need to get into the real world. alot of people have put there hobby on hold so they can buy FOOD. remember this is a hobby!!!!!! thanks jim
--------------------------------------------------------------------

You say you have been doing this 40 years and yet in your eleven posts one was how to hook up an amp Gage?

First I don't see where anyone was knocking your tci paints or why anyone would care what you use, most the people here are just here to help you use them, there are all different types of hobbyists on here from every level of learning to rat rod builders to some of the best professionals that make a living in this business in the country.

We have one of the top vette guys from Texas, another from Ohio and a national award winner in custom cycle painting, a shop on here that had two cars at Pebble beach last year, one he charged over $700,000 to restore and the other almost $500,000, if you think this is not big business as well as a hobby, you need to crawl in a hole with your friend, ever seen R&M Auctions or Barrett Jackson, most of the buyers there are professionals from this business and a lot make their living buying and selling.

You can buy red paint for (cheapest I know) $13 a gallon and up-wards of close to a $1,000 and everywhere in between, lot of the younger people on here are trying to learn and if painting a 90's ford or Chev, they should practice with the cheapest paint they can find. However if they are trying to learn on a collectible car that is when you may see the advice get serious and its for their own good and resale of the car long term.

You need to read some posts before making statements like you have, C-Boy did something with a budget rod from the ground up for less then just the paint materials may cost me on the vette I'm doing. I would not know where to begin with what Cboy did, so I did not follow the thread and he would not know or care how I'm doing mine. No big deal, its his hobby and my hobby and we are both doing what we want and love to do as is the case with everyone else on here.
Most important Cboy did his to show people how to build a car on a budget.
Is that not what you are B***hing about?

Hey, you and your friend that gave the big engine advice might really like the MAACO thread somewhere on here, shoot for $199.00 and you will be styling and profiling and normally it only takes one day to get the job done! Look it up.

Last edited by BarryK; 12-21-2008 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:40 AM
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I think this thread proves once again the infinite range of needs and expectations of the hobby. I received a few snide remarks when my boss paid me 1 week's wages to paint a company flatbed (1250.00). On top of the wage, it took over 450.00 in materials, using primer, sealer, omni au white single stage, john deer blitz black to paint the bed and rack, aerosol to paint the wheels. I cut corners everwhere I could while still giving him a quality job. I worked at least 40 hours stripping the failing (peeling) paint, priming, blocking once and shooting. This job still cost over 1700.00 and I earned every dime! Don't know how I or anyone could do it for less but as I stated earlier, half of the boys were impressed and half were thinking I screwed my boss!?! Ignorance I suppose.
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:56 PM
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Paint costs

I have just spent 3 weeks sanding, filling, leveling etc to do a quality paint
job on a 1200 sq ft condo built in the 80's and painted without any primer.
It was failing everywhere. If it took me that long to get walls and ceilings
level enough for flat or eggshell paint I can see where getting a car ready
for paint could take much longer. I will never complain about a professional
charging for his time as long as he tells like it is upfront. I charge for my time
why should he or she not?
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:22 PM
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I am not a car painter by any means, I just finished block sanding a plymouth GTX. I have a whole new respect for painters! They earn every dollar they charge.Just remember the paint job is the final stage and that is what everyone sees. Just like a house. No one can see the studs or the wiring or plumbing. They just see the paint............CR
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:55 PM
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"Purist" hotrodders don't PAINT anything. They scrounge up whatever junk they can and assemble it as some representation of a "vehicle" make it the "best" they can and it's "done". More power to them,Necessity IS the mother of invention and some a darn creative.
BUT,
GET OFF us painters. We EARN what we get.You have a GOOD rep and you can charge the bucks. It's the American way.
Like the story of the man charging $500.00 to turn 1 screw a half turn.
He knew which screw and how much.
Gasoline "used" to be .50 a gallon too.
Good paint "used" to be $25.00 a gallon.

What people do not understand is EVERYTHING it takes to do even a cheap job. I honestly don't know "how" Maaco does it.
Go price just masking tape,paper,cleaner,sandpaper,everything BUT paint and you'll be ASTOUNDED at what THEY cost just themselves.

I think YOU need some Rustoleum and a roller. There's your $25.00 paint job.
Then,
You'll bring it to me asking for a great paint job and expect me to just "spray over it".
It goes to hell in a month and THEN,you want ME to fix it for FREE.
Thats where the disclaimer form comes from.Besides,I'd tell you to walk anyway,would not even be a discusion about it.
There is a BIG reason QUALITY paint jobs COST.
It's called a GUARANTEE....It blows up,it's MY fault reguardless of the cause but I'll put every EFFORT into making it the BEST it can be so this does not happen.THAT costs.....
To quote Kosmoski,
It's body WORK
A paint JOB.
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Old 12-21-2008, 10:59 PM
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It doesn't matter what paint brand you use today...It's the next 5 projects that matter down the road weeks/months/years from now when having some leftover base to use to get more coverage out of what your using next...so you'll only need a couple quarts instead of gallons .. white for under a red , a ground coat of brown (three colors mixed together) to setup a yellow panel to go black ,, This is why to find one and stay with it,,might as well be a good one..

It's in there ,,just got to think it out :

Last edited by milo; 12-21-2008 at 11:14 PM. Reason: rescue the grammer
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:23 PM
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A $ 5 paint job.

A kid I new 50 years ago got a 50 buick his dad took in on trade for a new tractor. His dad had a farm equipment dealership and repair shop. the old buick was oxidized and the primer was showing thru the roof. trunk and hood. His younger brother was still in highschool and taking Shop and didn't have a project. Older brother started negotiating with the younger brother to paint it and finally said if you don't do a project you won't graduate. They finally agreed at $ 5. He got a gallon of red tractor paint and into the shop it went. The kids got the oil drain pan and the mop, stepped on the roof and started painting ....Yea ! runs ! streaks. paint runs down the glass. The older brother was screaming when he saw it. The kid said "what did you expect for Five bucks.."
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Old 12-22-2008, 07:53 AM
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yep, nothing like a really fast ugly terd . contrary to belief no one ever built one butt ugly on purpose . and by the way 5 grand wont get you **** in a motor . i've done this for a living for 40 years . i take offense to your stupid remarks about painters and my hobby . your the kind that looks for the cheapest paint job then pisses and moans about it . we dont set the bar , we just have to perform up to it. could it be your in the wrong hobby ? cane poles are cheap . cheap paint has it's place. collision jobs that are quick and gone never to be seen again. NOT on a car you've spent several years building. does everyone have to have a 10k paint job ? hell no but stop ragging on those who chose to build a top shelf car. if not for the folks who spend big bucks on a build there would be nothing but boring drab cars at the shows. you can drive a primed terd for all i care it's your car . but some of us have a little class and want our cars to look as good as they perform. your jealousy is clouding your sight as to what it is all about. this is a good example of why many of the tradesmen no longer try to help on this site. but then what would we know. we've only done it for 40 years, redone jobs because of trying " new and improved " , seen hundreds of paint failures caused by this crap .
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:54 AM
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Hey shine, are you angry!
You've said what I suspected for a little while; the authorities in the paint/body have been elusive for some time. Shame to keep that much insight under a rug. I'm sure I've asked some stupid questions on here and even argued with some very knowledgable folks and for that I apologize. I agree with a small bit of what countryboy is saying - when folks contract a high dollar car (not doing any of the work themselves) investing over 100k and then storing it or selling it, seems a little crazy to me.
Don't let us idiots discourage you from commenting, I for 1 need a lot of direction in honing my skills and you are appreciated.

Thanx to all - shine, badbob, martinsr, bee, atkart, 302, etc., sometimes a litttle ***kissing gets you what you need!
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