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Old 06-01-2004, 11:27 PM
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Throttle return springs question

I got the new Lokar style throttle cable in the Jag tonight and noticed the carb not retuning to idle consistently. After I had adjusted the cable for proper angle and tention it was a little better but not perfect. I was going to up the return spring a little but wasn't sure of the best way to do it. How do you determine the proper spring for the job? Do they sell springs by return pressure or???? Also can I dry lube my new cable to give it more slip? The new cable went in easier than I had originally thought. But since the cable is thicker and heavier I expected a little more drag on the entire system. There is also a small assist spring on the peddle that I can tweak as well.

I have some photos I'll put up later of the new setup.

Regards
Mark

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Last edited by Jag Daddy; 06-01-2004 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 06-01-2004, 11:48 PM
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I think as long as you don't have so much pressure that it promotes throttle shaft bushing wear,it'll be fine.I always run two springs on mine,I had a carb(gunked up old Q-jet)stick wide open at over 100mph once and since then I put two springs allways.
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:05 AM
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Hi Mark. 78 is right. I always use 2 return springs (1 small and 1 larger in dia. together. smaller one on the inside.) With the springs pulling the butterflies closed you should be able to fine the new cable. HTH.

Norm.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:10 AM
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Just put up a photo of the install so far. See what you think. Engine still could do with a good steaming before I finish.

Regards
Mark
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Old 06-02-2004, 05:12 AM
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Looks good. Just took a peak at the pic. I used to cut the ends of those springs all the time and then re-bend the ends to shorten the length of the spring. This causes the spring to retain some more of of it's 'stretch' even at idle instead of being in an almost 'relaxed' position at idle. I too have used the 'dual spring' method on some cars and just a single spring with good return strength on others.


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Old 06-04-2004, 01:16 AM
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Well I went out tonight and found a dual spring from spectre, it's not long enough for the current return spring position. I also picked up a pack of springs that I could make one from.

How much force is to much on the carb bushings? I was thinking of using a fishing scale to measure the amount of pull the current spring makes at one inch and see IF I could make a dual setup with a bit more. Is there a better way to do this?

The Spectre springs came with a mickey mouse looking L bracket that bolts to the manifold. I'm not sure the spring angle will be correct if I were to use it. I know Russel makes an anodized one that is a bit taller. But I'm not sure if it will inter fear with the Qjet linkage. BTW what are the bolt sizes on the manifold 7/16?

Regards
Mark
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Old 06-04-2004, 02:08 AM
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The intake bolts are 3/8" diameter.

Remington makes a teflon-based gun lubricant called Rem-DriLube. It sprays on, then the vehicle evaporates (no not the Jag ), leaving only a film of white teflon. I've been using it on my throttle shafts, but not for a long enough time to tell if it makes a difference.

Seems to me if you ran the springs forward from the linkage, off the top of the lever, there would be a lot less wear on the backside of the throttle shaft hole. Another 80,000 miles or so & I'll probably know something.

Last edited by jimfulco; 06-04-2004 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 06-04-2004, 07:51 AM
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The fact is that ANY pressure on the throttle shaft will wear it out prematurely. The carb base is soft aluminum and the throttle shaft is not much better than cold rolled steel so any pressure there will set up a great grinding process that will eat out the hole. As far as no-return on your setup you have a couple of problems. First, the spring is totally relaxed @ closed throttle so there is no closing force for that final few 1/000s. The spring should have some stretch when the throttle is closed.

Second, the bracket arm you are using appears to be very near the same plane as the throttle shaft so there isn't much lever arm to torque the throttles shut. To overcome the this, you will need to put on a much stronger spring than you would need with a longer lever arm which will exacerbate your wear problem. Look at the attached cartoon of throttle spring attachment options. Yours is presently set up like example #1 which is the worst case! Note that when you open the throttle that both the spring and throttle cable are pulling on the throttle shaft in the same direction. The shaft must resist twice the throttle opening force which is destroying the 'bearing' in the carb base. the fourth picture is the ideal case since the spring acts only on the throttle cable and the throttle shaft has virtually no pressure on it; all it needs to do is rotate so bearings should last a long time. With your throttle cable setup that isn't an option so you should go with picture 3, "Better" setup. By installing the spring directly on the throttle cable mount, pulling as closely as possible exactly opposite the cable, you will have great throttle closing pressure and minimal force on the throttle shaft for long carb life. It does require making a spring return bracket, but with your odd-ball setup, you are probably a bracket making expert by now!

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Old 06-04-2004, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
It does require making a spring return bracket, but with your odd-ball setup, you are probably a bracket making expert by now!

I wish I were an expert! I guess I do kinda have some odd problems that no one else seems to deal with. I have been having to go back the those old junior high metal shop lessons now and then.

Thanks for the diagrams, I'm going to have to look an see if I have a place to mount a bracket in front of the carb in the intake. The setup that is there now was how it came when I bought it. That's why I'm always looking at making things work right, instead of just work.

Diagram B & C is about the only option I have, I notice that they want the spring in diagram C to continue on the same plane as the cable. Mine does not have an angle so it would be fairly straight.

The B diagram would be the easiest to pull off.

After looking a diagram A, this may be why my peddle has always been stiff. Well back to the old drawing board!!!!

Regards
Mark
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Old 06-05-2004, 11:54 PM
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Update!

Well tonight after hitting up one of the local car shows I came home and decided to get to work. I thought I better check the cable again so I tried to crack the linkage wide open (not running) and the new metal linkage hit a small metal shaft that looks like another throttle hookup that sits above it. SO I had to move the linkage to that shaft, not the pedal in MUCH easier but I still cannot relocate the spring. There is a few possibility's of making something to move it but I haven't figured that out completely.
I now have a BIGGER question, the new throttle location needed an E ring instead of a nut to hold the cable in position. I used the calipers and figured it needed a 4.3mm E ring. Is there any problems with using an E ring to hold the cable on the throttle lever? If you look close at my photo of the old hookup you'll see what I'm referring too. I guess moving the cable out to the top gives me a bit more leverage and it seems the pedal assembly likes it better, Nice and smooth, first time since I owned the car it feels like a normal pedal.

Regards
Mark

Last edited by Jag Daddy; 06-06-2004 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 06-06-2004, 10:02 PM
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Good move on the throttle cable. More leverage is the key and that applies to the spring also. Find out a way to hook the spring to that lever arm too. That stud requires a hair-pin clip, not an E-ring. Sounds like a 1/8" or 3/16" would do the trick. Another way would be to drill a small hole in the depression and hook the return spring there capturing the throttle cable end and mounting the spring.

Incidentally, how did your burl wood dash project come out?
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Old 06-07-2004, 12:46 AM
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Willy's
I don't remember seeing a hole in the stud for a hairpin clip. I maybe I didn't look close enough. I'll have to try and get that e ring off of there now. Man it fits on there tight. If the stud does not have a hole in it I'm going to have to figure a way to make one. That part of the throttle shaft does not look removable, It seems to be a stamped on component.

I was trying to figure out a bracket for the setup tonight. Not an easy task. There are to threaded holes in the manifold but no where near where I need to place a bracket. The Qjet front studs are on top of the carb so they are out, I was considering making a bracket that would use the 2 open studs and then run around the front of the carb, but I need my new set of valve covers to get the clearances right. Yes I said new, the old ones had a major flaw in the casting and failed when I torqued them to 10 lbs. One when on fine the other let out with a loud BANG and the crack is fairly large. So I bought some 2 piece ones.

I was at the car show here yesterday and saw a really nice setup on a demon carb from Jegs, but it won't work on a qjet so I may have to make one something like it .

The dash project is on hold for now, I pulled the old dash and fixed all the problem areas. I put the gages in another dash to free up the original. This let me keep the car semi runnable. I'm going to be starting up the dash after I get the engine complete. After that a new interior!

Regards
Mark
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:07 AM
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A clip like this might be easier to deal with: http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article52_3.jpg

I once ran springs from the top of the throttle bracket to a lift plate at the left front of the intake. Not exactly pretty, but you might be able to fabricate (there's that word again) something along that line. Maybe using studs in the intake bolt holes. Or maybe something off the A/C bracketry.
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Old 06-07-2004, 11:16 AM
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You will need to drill the hole in the stud - there isn't one there from the factory.

I think one of these spring brackets might work.

The first seems to be one that is mounted to the carb base and accepts the spring out front.

http://www.jegs.com//cgi-bin/ncommer...03&prmenbr=361


This one could work with the leg out front and a metal bracket sticking up high enough to hold a parallel spring.

http://www.jegs.com//cgi-bin/ncommer...79&prmenbr=361

Thsi one claims to be made for the SBC application and mounts in front like you need.

http://www.jegs.com//cgi-bin/ncommer...16&prmenbr=361
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Old 06-08-2004, 12:31 AM
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Well it looks like most of those are for Holleys' which might be of use in the near future. I did purchase a 600 CFM Holley 4160 style carb that needs a rebuild. I may switch over as soon as I can, I think the holley gives me a little more hood clearance too.

BUT I think it's back to the drawing board on the spring bracket. I have a couple of ideas I'm putting down on paper now

Regards
Mark
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