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Old 05-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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Ticking/chattering sound from sbc

Hi guys!

From the first day I started up and breaked in my new build engine, I have had this annoying (!) ticking sound.


I bought a complete set from summit: Trick Flow 420hp kit.



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-k314-420-395
It is a hydraulic cam with rollertip lifters.


in order to make a long story short, I have tried this:

1. different types of oil from Mobil 1 5W-40 to royal purple 20w-50 (which I use now)
2. I've tried everything from 1/4 to one full turn from ziro lash on the lifters.
3. I've switched to the Comp Cam hydraulic lifters.
4. I have shown the engine for several "well-known" engine builders here, no one has any good idea.
5. I've tried longer push rods. (7,900 in)
6. I sent film and mail to trick-flow. (those who suggested a longer push rods)
7. installed a roller- cam button frome compcams


here is a little film when I show the valve train geometry:

I've been thinking and reading a lot about ticking sounds.
and I think the sound is coming from the top. it is not the fuel pump or exaust leak.

I hold a thum on either

-the roller rockers itself. they just make such a sound

- I have too little oil pressure? Now I have about 2-3 bar at idle.
stock oil pump.

Thanks for your time! and hope someone can help.


best regards
Edd


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Old 05-27-2013, 04:28 PM
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You shouldn't swap out the lifters once the cam and lifters have been broken in as a set. Is that what you did?
Not saying that's the cause of your ticking, but its going to be an issue that will rare it's ugly head down the track.



Duke
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:36 PM
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To be honest its difficult for me to see anything when everything is black. I have the same problem at work inspecting parts we fabricate made out of black delrin and black G10.
Anyway I thought I saw a washer between the exhaust rocker stud and the guideplate, but didn't see one under the intake rocker stud? I also thought I could see in the video evidence of the edges of the rocker's slot(bare or silver aluminum) making contact with the studs fillet radius, or the transition from hex to shaft.(about 0:37 in video where you rubbed rocker with finger)For instance if you held the rocker upside down, and dropped a stud into it like you did at the beginning of the video, the radius would be making contact on the slot. I thought I could see a witness mark on the studs radius as well? Like I said hard to see.
The washer, if thats what I see, could raise the stud up far enough to make contact with the slot when its adjusted, where the intake doesn't?
The witness mark on the valve stem tip also looks to be canted to one side as if the rocker was tilted(as it could be if touching the stud fillet) and not sitting square on the stem tip.
You might try some lash caps on top of the exhaust valves if you have to have a washer under the exhaust studs. Just try them temporarily to see if they make things quiet. Exhaust other possibilities first as you would probably need new longer pushrods too.
I couldn't see if the retainer/spring was making contact with the rockers underside, but its usually pretty close.
You might want to put a piece of playdoe or clay under it and go through the same routine as the video and remove and inspect to see if they make contact.
Also I couldn't see if you had any type of spring locater on the head? Either a spring cup or an internal locater can keep springs from dancing around and making racket, but you would have to re-check/shim installed height.
Hope you get some ideas. Good luck.
By the way, nice ride!
FWIW,
ssmonty
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:38 PM
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I breaked inn the compcam lifters as well.. sound was neither better nor worse.
possible you are right, and that the camshaft can be damaged?
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
You shouldn't swap out the lifters once the cam and lifters have been broken in as a set. Is that what you did?
Not saying that's the cause of your ticking, but its going to be an issue that will rare it's ugly head down the track.



Duke
Roller cam, doesn't make a difference. No real break in on a roller cam.

Sounds like a rocker/upper end problem. I also saw the marks on the rocker studs. Indicating some kind of rocker-stud contact.

Do the pushrods/guide plates fit snug? I have seen/heard similar problems when 3/8" guide plates get used with 11/32" pushrods. Also have seen poly locks contacting upper inside of rocker, making noise.
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:01 PM
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If its a roller cam/lifters you don't have to worry about breaking it in the same as a flat tappet cam/lifters. You can move/swap lifters and/or cam with no problems.
ssmonty
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmonty View Post
To be honest its difficult for me to see anything when everything is black. I have the same problem at work inspecting parts we fabricate made out of black delrin and black G10.

1.Anyway I thought I saw a washer between the exhaust rocker stud and the guideplate, but didn't see one under the intake rocker stud?

2. I also thought I could see in the video evidence of the edges of the rocker's slot(bare or silver aluminum) making contact with the studs fillet radius, or the transition from hex to shaft.(about 0:37 in video where you rubbed rocker with finger)For instance if you held the rocker upside down, and dropped a stud into it like you did at the beginning of the video, the radius would be making contact on the slot. I thought I could see a witness mark on the studs radius as well? Like I said hard to see.
The washer, if thats what I see, could raise the stud up far enough to make contact with the slot when its adjusted, where the intake doesn't?

3. The witness mark on the valve stem tip also looks to be canted to one side as if the rocker was tilted(as it could be if touching the stud fillet) and not sitting square on the stem tip.
You might try some lash caps on top of the exhaust valves if you have to have a washer under the exhaust studs. Just try them temporarily to see if they make things quiet. Exhaust other possibilities first as you would probably need new longer pushrods too.
I couldn't see if the retainer/spring was making contact with the rockers underside, but its usually pretty close.
You might want to put a piece of playdoe or clay under it and go through the same routine as the video and remove and inspect to see if they make contact.
Also I couldn't see if you had any type of spring locater on the head? Either a spring cup or an internal locater can keep springs from dancing around and making racket, but you would have to re-check/shim installed height.
Hope you get some ideas. Good luck.
By the way, nice ride!
FWIW,
ssmonty
Nice answer!
1. the washer under the stud was just for checking out when I tok the pictures. I had these installed at first .. because they followed the kit and I did not know where they were going. but I soon discovered that I should use the. but no difference in sound.

this (as you probably know already) is my first engine build and my first v8.

2.yes it is marks you see. I have wondered this myself. there should not be any marks??


3.and yes I altso think the rollertip is hitting slightly tilted.
mm you think I need even longer pushrods??

sorry unfocused images that all parts are black!




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Old 05-27-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carcaz View Post
I breaked inn the compcam lifters as well.. sound was neither better nor worse.
possible you are right, and that the camshaft can be damaged?
I thought that the cam lobes needed to be virgin as well as the lifters to enable the cam lobe and follower to 'break-in' to each other successfully.
Man, that is a nasty tick..did you use a solid lifter to check your valve train geometry? Check the wiki link on this site for how to do it correctly. You don't just TRY longer pushrods , you must go through the procedure correctly to work out what length you need. Sometimes you have to grind the underside of the rockers as ssmonty suggested, I had to on 'some' of mine. It's all part of the geometry check.



Duke
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmonty View Post
If its a roller cam/lifters you don't have to worry about breaking it in the same as a flat tappet cam/lifters. You can move/swap lifters and/or cam with no problems.
ssmonty
it is not a rollercam. its flat taped hydralic...
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:11 PM
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"there should not be any marks??"

I am a slow typer, No marks.. Marks mean contact, contact is noise.
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carcaz View Post
it is not a rollercam. its flat taped hydralic...
Cam/kit shown is a roller..


if you swapped lifters on a flat tappet you may have destroyed cam. I've seen it happen many times lately.
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke View Post
I thought that the cam lobes needed to be virgin as well as the lifters to enable the cam lobe and follower to 'break-in' to each other successfully.
Man, that is a nasty tick..did you use a solid lifter to check your valve train geometry? Check the wiki link on this site for how to do it correctly. You don't just TRY longer pushrods , you must go through the procedure correctly to work out what length you need. Sometimes you have to grind the underside of the rockers as ssmonty suggested, I had to on 'some' of mine. It's all part of the geometry check.



Duke
ok.. yes I used 2 solid lifters, and I have tryed to do the procedure.. I have an adjustable pushrod.. but this seems a little hard to decide exactly.
it was Trick Flow as suggested little longer pushrods. their tech suport ... I bought this as a kit with pushrods...
but have realized now that this obviously is not working
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:16 PM
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If this is a f/t hydraulic. What is your seat pressure on the springs? Excessive spring pressure, over 140 lbs., will cause hyd lifter problems/noise plus wiped lobes.
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBCRMAN@aol.com View Post
Cam/kit shown is a roller..


if you swapped lifters on a flat tappet you may have destroyed cam. I've seen it happen many times lately.
the kit is a hyd. the picture is just wrong from summit/trickflow.. If you click on the link you see..
I have not noticed anything with the camshaft. engine preform well though. and yes the ticking is terrible! but I have met several who say "sounds like that I have to expect." last on camaro forum!
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Old 05-27-2013, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by BOBCRMAN@aol.com View Post
If this is a f/t hydraulic. What is your seat pressure on the springs? Excessive spring pressure, over 140 lbs., will cause hyd lifter problems/noise plus wiped lobes.
spring rate is 360 lbs./in.


but that said, I bought this in a set .. and several others have probably bought it... may be something with my installation.
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