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Old 10-19-2011, 08:41 PM
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Ticking sound (lifter, rocker arm?)

I bought a vehicle with a Ford 302 in it last year. It had been sitting for about five years, from what I heard it was only started once in that period of time. Anyway, it runs fine but it has a ticking sound. The previous owner thinks it's a hydraulic lifter. We tried some transmission fluid but the noise didn't clear up. I later replaced the valve cover gaskets because they were leaking. The passenger side looks normal to me but on the drivers side it appears that two of the rocker arms are a little bit more crooked that I think they should be. The drivers side is the side that it sounds like the noise is coming from anyway. I don't remember which, but one of the guide plates has some wear.

The rocker arms say Erson 1.6 and the pushrod guide plates say TRW 49009.

The pictures are below, do you guys have any thoughts/suggestions on the entire matter; anything catch your eyes? Anything I should know? The passenger side does not have that orange RTV stuff or whatever it is; anyone have an idea why that would be there? What do you call these, pedestal mount, stud mount, something else? I'm new to this stuff.

Any thoughts are welcome, Thanks.







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Old 10-19-2011, 09:38 PM
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1.7 ratio is stock, the rockers are stud mounted.

Some of the springs (exhaust especially) look like they've rusted. Not a good thing, this can create stress risers and a broken spring can result from that. There are shims under the intake springs. Hopefully the installed height was actually measured and the shims weren't just installed "just because".

In some cases, the guide plates- as supplied- do not align the push rods correctly. Because you only have two that are off center enough to be concerned about, this could be due to the stud holes being drilled slightly wrong or even from factory machining tolerances working against you. The cure might be to split the guide plate, realign it so the tips of the valves are aligned to the rollers, then reweld.

As for the RTV, it appears that there was coolant leakage past the stud threads (the holes go into the water jacket) and RTV was used to seal them. While RTV wouldn't be MY first choice (or second for that matter), as long as there's no seepage I wouldn't worry too much about it. But if there were ever need to remove the studs, use a teflon thread sealant instead of RTV. And if you were to use RTV at least install the studs before the RTV sets up, and remove any excess.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:12 AM
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Are these rockers the tickers?

My motor always has a couple random, loose, misaligned rockers when shut down..

If you run it and shut it down are the same rockers misaligned?

I'd try moving the rockers around and see what happends...
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
1.7 ratio is stock, the rockers are stud mounted.

Some of the springs (exhaust especially) look like they've rusted. Not a good thing, this can create stress risers and a broken spring can result from that. There are shims under the intake springs. Hopefully the installed height was actually measured and the shims weren't just installed "just because".

In some cases, the guide plates- as supplied- do not align the push rods correctly. Because you only have two that are off center enough to be concerned about, this could be due to the stud holes being drilled slightly wrong or even from factory machining tolerances working against you. The cure might be to split the guide plate, realign it so the tips of the valves are aligned to the rollers, then reweld.

As for the RTV, it appears that there was coolant leakage past the stud threads (the holes go into the water jacket) and RTV was used to seal them. While RTV wouldn't be MY first choice (or second for that matter), as long as there's no seepage I wouldn't worry too much about it. But if there were ever need to remove the studs, use a teflon thread sealant instead of RTV. And if you were to use RTV at least install the studs before the RTV sets up, and remove any excess.
Thanks, that answered a lot of my questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonneville462
Are these rockers the tickers?

My motor always has a couple random, loose, misaligned rockers when shut down..

If you run it and shut it down are the same rockers misaligned?

I'd try moving the rockers around and see what happends...
I haven't ever checked them right after turning the engine off, I have always done it after it had been sitting for a few hours. I'll have have to check it right after shutting it down. I don't know which ones the sound is coming from specifically, if I run the engine without the valve cover to narrow the search down; will oil go everywhere?
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:46 AM
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The guide plates holes are bigger than the stud so if the guide plates are off they can be moved to reset the position. But if just 1 pushrod is out and the others on the same guide are ok then this wont help excpt you can split the diff. if the diff. isnt to much.

To see the rocker in action you can hook up a timming light to shoot the rocker with. It will freeze the movement of the rocker and the part of the movement you see will change by moving the lights pick up to a diff. plug wire. It can get messy from oil fling around if you run it with out the v cover on but it might not be that bad if you just idle it. And some times they dont throw oil that bad any way. The timming light will let you see if the noise is comming from the same rockers that are off or not. And you can press on the rocker with a thumb over the pushrod to see what ones are noisey.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:09 AM
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Are they stock Ford heads? The stock rocker ratio for Windsor Fords is 1.6:1, not 1.7:1, The RTV on the
is on the exhaust studs because as stated, there's water down there, on the intakes studs, there is the
intake port.

To center the rollers on the valve tips, try first flipping the guide plates over, if that doesn't work,
you'll need to cut the plates, center the tips, then weld them back together. The previous owner was
an engine assembler, you get to be the engine builder...
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin'
The guide plates holes are bigger than the stud so if the guide plates are off they can be moved to reset the position. But if just 1 pushrod is out and the others on the same guide are ok then this wont help excpt you can split the diff. if the diff. isnt to much.

To see the rocker in action you can hook up a timming light to shoot the rocker with. It will freeze the movement of the rocker and the part of the movement you see will change by moving the lights pick up to a diff. plug wire. It can get messy from oil fling around if you run it with out the v cover on but it might not be that bad if you just idle it. And some times they dont throw oil that bad any way. The timming light will let you see if the noise is comming from the same rockers that are off or not. And you can press on the rocker with a thumb over the pushrod to see what ones are noisey.
Thanks for the tips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bates_k
Are they stock Ford heads? The stock rocker ratio for Windsor Fords is 1.6:1, not 1.7:1, The RTV on the
is on the exhaust studs because as stated, there's water down there, on the intakes studs, there is the
intake port.

To center the rollers on the valve tips, try first flipping the guide plates over, if that doesn't work,
you'll need to cut the plates, center the tips, then weld them back together. The previous owner was
an engine assembler, you get to be the engine builder...
Your guess is as good as mine. I assume they are "factory" from something but I don't know if or how they were modified.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:21 AM
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Mr. Bates is right about the ratio this isnt a boss or anything so 1.6 it is. To tell what the heads are use the cast nos. and date code to look them up.

Last edited by gonefishin'; 10-20-2011 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonefishin'
Mr. Bates is right about the ratio this isnt a boss or anything so 1.6 it is. To tell what the heads are use the cast nos. and date code to look them up.
I didn't write down the part number from the rockers, but they did have "1.6" stamped into them.

Wouldn't I have to remove the heads for the cast numbers? Other then the CF logo (Cleveland Foundry?) The only numbers I can find are under the valve covers and 4 digits. 2F16 on one head and 2E24 on the other. I already decoded the block date code in the past so I assume it's the same.

So if i'm doing this right
2F16 = June 16th, 19x2
2E24 = May 24th, 19x2

and the block
6B16 = February 16th, 19x6

The truck is a 1982 so I guess we can assume 1982 on the heads and ??? on the block.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:45 PM
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ISKY has the cure for the issue with the roller tip of the rocker arm not correctly aligned with the valve stem tip. They are adjustable guide plates. I dont have the part # handy, but have used many sets of them. They are very inexpensive, ISKY quality and will help cure that alignment issue. This is still not addressing what could be a geometry problem. By the looks of things in those pictures, that engine needs going over with a fine toothe comb.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:52 PM
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Another thing to consider is this, is the engine a roller cam or a flat tappet camshaft? If the engine has a flat tappett cam and lifters, you might want to verify that each valve is opening to full lift, you might have a cam lobe going flat. This of course can be contributed to the lack of Zinc and Phosphates in today's oil. Has the engine been run with a ZDDP additive or a Zinc/Phosphate fortified oil? I'm new to this particular forum, on most others you can just use the search function, as there must be many previous threads on the subject.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDRINKNITRO
ISKY has the cure for the issue with the roller tip of the rocker arm not correctly aligned with the valve stem tip. They are adjustable guide plates. I dont have the part # handy, but have used many sets of them. They are very inexpensive, ISKY quality and will help cure that alignment issue. This is still not addressing what could be a geometry problem. By the looks of things in those pictures, that engine needs going over with a fine toothe comb.
Yeah, geometry problems came to mind. The other head looks just fine though. I'm thinking maybe someone dug into that side of the head (who also must have put the rtv there) and didn't put it back together right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDRINKNITRO
Another thing to consider is this, is the engine a roller cam or a flat tappet camshaft? If the engine has a flat tappett cam and lifters, you might want to verify that each valve is opening to full lift, you might have a cam lobe going flat. This of course can be contributed to the lack of Zinc and Phosphates in today's oil. Has the engine been run with a ZDDP additive or a Zinc/Phosphate fortified oil? I'm new to this particular forum, on most others you can just use the search function, as there must be many previous threads on the subject.
I don't know about the cam, I had always assumed that it had a flat tappet but I later found out that the block is not original. If my speculation is correct, based on the 19x6 block date.. I may have a 1986 Mustang roller block. I haven't pulled the starter to verify the actual casting numbers though.

The previous owner used Valvoline 10W30, I assume the basic stuff. I use 10W40 Rotella.
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:35 PM
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If the heads are 1982 they would have had pedestal mounted rockers stock so if you see they are converted from ped. mounted to stud mounted you could guess 1982. If from 1972 (that is my guess) the stud boss would be different than if converted from ped. mount rockers cause they used a positive stop stud sort of like Pontiac. The pos. stop stud is removed and the hole drill and tapped for a screw in stud and guide plate like you now have.

And yes the cast no. is on the underside of the heads.
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Old 10-21-2011, 01:12 AM
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The exhaust valves look like they have the hardened tips like were used w/the rail rockers and positive stop studs, but the intakes don't look the same. I can't tell by looking at what can be seen of the stud bosses whether the heads were originally pedestal or not. But then again I'm not a "Ford guy", per se.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:09 AM
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Sir, as far as the oil is concerned only the Valvoline VR-1 " RACING ' oil will have adequate amounts of Zinc and Phosphates, not the regular line of Valvoline. Unless he has been using a additive with the standard Valvoline oil, you may very well have a flat cam lobe.
This can be checked without knowing the cam or its specs. Preferably with a dial indicator, but not totally needed though, you can measure and " compare " the lift of each lobe at the rocker arm end or even the valve spring retainer. If you measure on the pushrod side of the rocker, remember you will have cam lobe lift, not valve lift. On the other side of the rocker arm like the top of the spring retainer you will have valve lift which included the rocker arm ratio. It doesn't matter if your cam has .480" lift or .680" lift, your looking for the variation, one that has considerable less lift or travel than the others.

To be clear on the word geometry, that is refering to pushrod length and how the roller tip of the rocker arm is in relation to the tip of the valve stem. its very hard to tell from the pictures, and it would only be speculation. Another thing to think about is if the underside roller rockers are contacting the valve spring retainer. Roller rockers sometimes hit inside valve covers and thier breathers, I am NOT saying this is your problem, just food for thought, O.K.

The way the RTV is used, or should I say abused, is a clear indicator of someone who probably shouldn't have been into thier engine this deep. I am purposely trying to be polite and not bash anyone or thier efforts here. I prefer to use a Teflon based thread sealant on rocker studs which go into through boltholes in the cylinder head. Regardless of the product used, prepping the threads, is the key to the product doing its intended job. Neither product adheres to oily threads, and will not seal. A whole thread can be written on the proper use of thread sealants, and even more so on how not to abuse them.
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