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Old 09-10-2004, 09:57 AM
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Question Timing?180 out! flames from carb, help!

73 dart sport / with donor 360 from a 77aspen.

I had a local shop put in a cam and a edlebrock intake and carb.
The car returned home running very sluggish ( not what i expected ) . I figured replace the coil and plugs and check the timing. I found TDC then routed the plug wires in the correct firing order. Flames and backfired like crazy. 180 out i figure.
so i swap the wires, the car startsup and runs, but is still runs very rich and has a backfire thru the carb now and then.( especailly when cold )

Also now when i put in reverse it slams into gear and the whole car vibrates and shakes like a 6.5 earthquake. related?

My questions;
1- if a distrubutor is 180 does thet mean that the tinmg mark and spark is firing at tdc but on the incorrect stroke?
2 - how can i determine what stroke is taking place when the number one piston is at TDC and the manufactures marks for timing are aligned ?
3 - if it is 180 out. Am i correct in that the Manufactures timing mark on the balancer would be incorrect ? and i need to make a new mark to use in timing the engine?

any advice you can give me is much appreciated

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Old 09-10-2004, 11:43 AM
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1. Yes

2. Pull no. 1 plug, stick your thumb over the hole and have a buddy bump the engine over. When your thumb gets popped off, turn the balancer by hand to 0 in the shortest path possible. Now pop the distributor cap off and see where the rotor is pointing. It should be at the no. 1 wire.

3. No

Also, it is possible the valves are incorrectly adjusted.
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Old 09-10-2004, 02:00 PM
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Thumbs up

Lonestar - Thanks for the reply. I am convinced that the at the local shop did not line up the time marks. as my thumb came out when the timing mark was almost half way around from the zero mark.

I placed a screwdriver in the #1 hole as i roted the balanced mark around to the timing marks the piston receded almost to the bottom.

i paid for the installation of New chain, new gears, would you agree or disagree to it sounds like a bad install?
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Old 09-10-2004, 02:05 PM
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Take it back and make sure they do it right.

To find TDC on the compression strock I just take off the valve cover, and rotate the engine until I see the intake valve open and then close and then I know its on its compression stroke. However this isn't nessesary but as my covers come off in about 20 seconds I do this for ease. Its possible that the did not correctly align the gears when putting the new chain on. It is also possible that the distributor is off a couple teeth.

Since you paid for their services you should go back and ask that they fix their mistake. You did not pay for the performance parts to have the car run slower.
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Old 09-10-2004, 02:26 PM
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They won't be thrilled when the wires, timing is out of wack, try putting a plastic plug, or aluminum foil ball in the hole and turn it by hand, clockwise, till it pops out, then continue to TDC. Then redo the wires and set the timing! It won't run 180 out! I wouldn't think a reputable shop would screw that up unless maybe they put the newbie on your job!
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Old 09-10-2004, 02:32 PM
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Worst part is that i had planned on taking to Monster MOPAR this weekend :-(

I bet the rearend shake has to do with the motor mount they were suppose to weld.

thanks again and have a great weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-10-2004, 02:59 PM
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VERY INTERESTING

It sounds like you keep adding things that they where going to do and forgot to do. Hmmmm. I would get my money back and then head for a place that can do Dyno work. Usually they cost about 15 percent more, but what you get is more like 100 percent more than most shops.

hr41pearl
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Old 09-10-2004, 03:49 PM
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The engine will vibrate and run rough causing a shaking if the timing is out of whack. Fix that first and then see how it goes. However, like was mentioned, if you have doubts about this place get your money back and take it to another place. Make sure though that your motor mount is solid before taking it anywhere.
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Old 09-10-2004, 04:35 PM
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Thanks everyone for the advice. I should have just gone to a better established facility in the first place. But being a lover of MOPARs i was drawn in by the many mopars residing behind his shop. ( Hmmm! I wonder if the fact that they were behind the shop verses on the street should have been my first clue)

I did get some money back after he roasted my wiring harness. Honestly I do not even want to talk to guy. I just want the car to run so i can enjoy the ride.

Expensive lesson, but I have learned.

If you in the St. Louis Area stop by Gateway International Raceway this weekend. Monster MOPAR is a great time regards of whose Make/Model you prefer to drive.
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dadeeoo
Lonestar - Thanks for the reply. I am convinced that the at the local shop did not line up the time marks. as my thumb came out when the timing mark was almost half way around from the zero mark.

I placed a screwdriver in the #1 hole as i roted the balanced mark around to the timing marks the piston receded almost to the bottom.

i paid for the installation of New chain, new gears, would you agree or disagree to it sounds like a bad install?
I read this as that you are saying when you set the timing mark to 0, the #1 piston is at the bottom of the stroke.

Are you sure your using the #1 cylinder?

The balancer is connected to the crankshaft, and it would be difficult to put it on 180 deg off. There is a keyway that lines it up.

Is it the same balancer you originally had?
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:17 AM
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It will not run 180* or 2 teeth off. And I've never heard of a balancer being marked wrong from the factory. My guess from what you post is it is not wired right.

Troy

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Old 09-11-2004, 04:12 PM
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timing

Doc here

If you or your guy put the distributor in Dot to Dot on the timing gears, for #1 On the rotor, your way off... Dot to Dot is #6 TDC Compression, #1 TDC Compression is Both Dots at 12 O'Clock.

To set your timing,

Compression #1 Cylinder, Timing mark on TDC, Both intake and exhaust valves Closed ,
(You should be able to rattle the rockers a little bit)
Put the cap on and locate #1 plug tower, mark the bottom of the distributor with a laundry pen.

Remove the cap and check the rotor, It should be dead on the line.

If not put it there, with the Vacuum Advance (if so equipped) in the middle of the physical limits of travel (Advance / Retard) on the line.

My Best guess is that you are outside the limits of the Advance / Retard on the distributor movement (Like 1/2 to a full tooth off on the distributor) Where where Full travel in either direction is ALMOST enough to make it run but not quite.

NEXT Check your Firing order, 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2, Reversing 5 and 7 is common, AND does EXACTLY what your experiencing. Be sure even if you have to hand over hand the plug wires.

Fire it up, and set your initial static timing to between 8 and 10 degrees (depending on your engine) with your Vacuum advance disconnected and the line plugged.

If it performs well at that point, you can dial it in from there.

If you Can NOT get #1 TDC compression on the balancer, with both Valves closed, Then it may be possible that the Key had fallen out on installation and the balancer is just somewhere it happened to land (If that's even possible) Or The Dampener is shot and the marks are somewhere else other than where it should be.

Hope it helps!

Doc
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Old 09-13-2004, 05:30 AM
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if you really think that it is 180 out the easiest way to try to fix it in about 10 minutes is to tak e your distributor cap off then take your distributor out and rotate it half turn. like the previous post said if you got the timing dots messed up on the install then it will run at first then not at all. that is what happened the first time i changed a timing chain. it took me a while to realize that i got the timing really screwed up.
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Old 09-13-2004, 08:11 AM
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thanks everyone, it is mute point now. With all your help we got the car running, things where good, took her out the track, the boy overheated her, and now shes knocking like woodpecker on a hollow tree.

I am going to look for a 340 crate. and maybe a part time job to help pay for it all.

Thanks again for all your help.

You guys are awesome!
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Old 09-13-2004, 01:54 PM
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Actually, the fastest way to fix (however I only would use it as a check) the distributor being 180 out is to take all the plug wires, and swap them directly across from each other. It should fire right up. However after you have discovered you are 180 out i would still take the dist out and fix it right so the next guy working on your car wont be confused as hell.
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