Is this timing, carb or valve springs...? - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 08:57 AM
SScott's Avatar
Eph 4:29-32
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Al
Age: 43
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Is this timing, carb or valve springs...?

THANK YOU in advance!

My car pings (sounds like valve float) under acceleration no matter what I do. I have it so retarded now it smells pig rich. My only guess is bad valve springs or something is wrong with my cam. I really don't know.

I have a 306 with a 144 supercharger and stick with 3:73's in a fox mustang.
New locked MSD dist. and digital CD.
Ford Racing B-303 roller (224/480), new (cloyes double) timing set, straight up.
Cobra GT40 heads with 1.7 crane RR.
All new 750 DP with proform body, quickfuel base and plates. 72/84 blocked rear PV.

The only thing hooked to vacuum is the brakes.

I have tried 3 distributors, with and without the blower, timing from way advance to way retarded. I also tried a different carb.

Any ideas of what to look for next or try?

Thanks again!

Scott

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 12:53 PM
RWENUTS's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Nanaimo, BC, Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 1,994
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 59
Thanked 212 Times in 200 Posts
What's a locked distributor?
Sounds like to much timing!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to RWENUTS For This Useful Post:
SScott (08-13-2012)
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:05 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,094
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 335 Times in 315 Posts
What's "way advanced" mean? And is your carb properly boost referenced?

You'll need about 30 degrees timing and a correctly referenced carb with a functioining PV system.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to ap72 For This Useful Post:
SScott (08-13-2012)
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 03:21 PM
SScott's Avatar
Eph 4:29-32
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Al
Age: 43
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWENUTS View Post
What's a locked distributor?
Sounds like to much timing!
The distributor does not have an advance mechanism now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
What's "way advanced" mean? And is your carb properly boost referenced?

You'll need about 30 degrees timing and a correctly referenced carb with a functioining PV system.
It did the same thing with a single plain intake and with the belt removed, I have tried both.

It seems to me like too much advance but I have turned the distributor to retard it so far it will barely run and still get the pinging sound like if you were to take off in 4th gear. I have 10:1 compression by the way on 93 pump gas.

Thank you so much!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:07 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 9,094
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 335 Times in 315 Posts
Then it sounds like a mechanical issue, not tuning. How's your oil pressure? Is it coming from one cylinder?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to ap72 For This Useful Post:
SScott (08-13-2012)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:14 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SScott View Post
The distributor does not have an advance mechanism now.



It did the same thing with a single plain intake and with the belt removed, I have tried both.

It seems to me like too much advance but I have turned the distributor to retard it so far it will barely run and still get the pinging sound like if you were to take off in 4th gear. I have 10:1 compression by the way on 93 pump gas.

Thank you so much!
I'm afraid you're going to find that 10:1 CR and boost w/only 93 octane isn't going to be enough octane.

That cam doesn't require a locked out timing, although for diagnosing things it's not going to hurt- but once you're up and running, use an advance curve.

It may take using an MSD BTM (Boost Timing Master) ignition box to retard the ignition by the amount of boost the blower is making. That's much safer and will give the most performance.

Have you verified TDC? Absolutely no chance of cross firing between the plug wires or because of a fouled distributor cap? Has the rotor phasing been checked? Prolly not the problem because you've tried several distributors, but might be worth checking just the same.

You mentioned valve springs. If the valves were floating or bouncing, etc. the performance will be way off but I'd not expect it to be detonating- IF that is in fact what you're hearing. But I would for sure be wanting to closely inspect the springs to be sure there are none broken!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
SScott (08-13-2012)
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:24 PM
SScott's Avatar
Eph 4:29-32
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Al
Age: 43
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Then it sounds like a mechanical issue, not tuning. How's your oil pressure? Is it coming from one cylinder?
Now that is a good question. I have good oil pressure. 40 at idle but do not know how to tell if the sound is only coming from one cylinder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
I'm afraid you're going to find that 10:1 CR and boost w/only 93 octane isn't going to be enough octane.

That cam doesn't require a locked out timing, although for diagnosing things it's not going to hurt- but once you're up and running, use an advance curve.

It may take using an MSD BTM (Boost Timing Master) ignition box to retard the ignition by the amount of boost the blower is making. That's much safer and will give the most performance.

Have you verified TDC? Absolutely no chance of cross firing between the plug wires or because of a fouled distributor cap? Has the rotor phasing been checked? Prolly not the problem because you've tried several distributors, but might be worth checking just the same.
When I can ever get it all worked out I do plan on race fuel before I go to the track. Maybe I should try some now to see if that is what is up?

New cap and rotor and each distributor had one too. I know I need to install the MSD timing tape as opposed to the setting timing at idle and that is on the todo list. I have a Crane HI6R with boost retard but I have not installed a MAP sensor yet and I do plan on more work on the carb when I am ready to fine tune, I have been too worried to do anything else until I narrow down the pinging. When I installed the heads, I put viton seals in even though I was told the heads were fresh from a machine shop, I wish I would have had all the springs checked. If this sounds like a valve spring issue I do not mind buying the comp cam replacements that have the same diameter.

Thanks!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-13-2012, 05:28 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SScott View Post
Now that is a good question. I have good oil pressure. 40 at idle but do not know how to tell if the sound is only coming from one cylinder.


When I can ever get it all worked out I do plan on race fuel before I go to the track. Maybe I should try some now to see if that is what is up?

New cap and rotor and each distributor had one too. I know I need to install the MSD timing tape as opposed to the setting timing at idle and that is on the todo list. I have a Crane HI6R with boost retard but I have not installed a MAP sensor yet and I do plan on more work on the carb when I am ready to fine tune, I have been too worried to do anything else until I narrow down the pinging. When I installed the heads, I put viton seals in even though I was told the heads were fresh from a machine shop, I wish I would have had all the springs checked. If this sounds like a valve spring issue I do not mind buying the comp cam replacements that have the same diameter.

Thanks!!!
You can make a temporary timing tape yourself.

I wouldn't expect the springs (unless broken) to be so weak that the engine won't even come up off idle w/o losing control of the valve train- but I suppose anything's possible. I would recommend the springs be inspected carefully, though. A broken damper can even cause problems.

In any event, if you plan on revving the engine anywhere near the redline it's capable of, using the correct valve springs set to the correct installed height is a must.

Have you readjusted the hydraulic lifter preload? Often guys will mistakenly bottom out the lifter's plunger when looking for zero lash because the books all say to twirl the p-rod between the thumb and fingers instead of jiggling the p-rod up and down. More on valve adjustment here. The page was written w/Chevy engines in mind but except for the firing order the procedure holds true for your Ford.

Some more valve train points to check. I apologize for all the links but it's the only practical way to cover so much ground in a single post.

Have you had a chance to do a leak down or at least a compression test on it yet? Has the vacuum at idle been checked- and note the needle behavior as well- as in is it steady or rhythmically jumping or "wandering"? Here is a vacuum gauge reading guide, this is another one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
SScott (08-14-2012)
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2012, 06:45 AM
SScott's Avatar
Eph 4:29-32
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Al
Age: 43
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
You can make a temporary timing tape yourself.

I wouldn't expect the springs (unless broken) to be so weak that the engine won't even come up off idle w/o losing control of the valve train- but I suppose anything's possible. I would recommend the springs be inspected carefully, though. A broken damper can even cause problems.

In any event, if you plan on revving the engine anywhere near the redline it's capable of, using the correct valve springs set to the correct installed height is a must.

Have you readjusted the hydraulic lifter preload? Often guys will mistakenly bottom out the lifter's plunger when looking for zero lash because the books all say to twirl the p-rod between the thumb and fingers instead of jiggling the p-rod up and down. More on valve adjustment here. The page was written w/Chevy engines in mind but except for the firing order the procedure holds true for your Ford.

Some more valve train points to check. I apologize for all the links but it's the only practical way to cover so much ground in a single post.

Have you had a chance to do a leak down or at least a compression test on it yet? Has the vacuum at idle been checked- and note the needle behavior as well- as in is it steady or rhythmically jumping or "wandering"? Here is a vacuum gauge reading guide, this is another one.
What a plethora of valuable information! Thank you very much! I love cheap DIY! The timing tape wiki is great! The damper is a new SFI unit from Summit, I have factory crane roller rockers that are pedestal mount so I don't have a lot of room for adjustment. I have not done a compression check but I will check that and I am a vacuum idiot, I will look into that and getting a vacuum gauge.

Thank you!!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2012, 07:14 AM
zildjian4life218's Avatar
Listen and Learn
 
Last wiki edit: DIY junkyard electrical fan controller
Last journal entry: SBC 305 Twin Turbo
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: WNY/Rochester, New York
Age: 25
Posts: 1,648
Wiki Edits: 7

Thanks: 44
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Have you ever thought about running E85 with that high compression and a super charger?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to zildjian4life218 For This Useful Post:
SScott (09-09-2013)
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2012, 07:21 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 705
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 75 Times in 75 Posts
If you turned the distributor every "which way" and the symptom doesn't "change", it's NOT "spark knock". It sounds like detonation to me. That is, too much static compression for the octane being used.

I would suggest you put about a 50/50 mix of 110 "race gas" and 93. If it STILL does it, I don't know what to tell you... But if it stops, it IS detonation.

FWIW

Jim
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Mr. P-Body For This Useful Post:
SScott (09-09-2013)
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2012, 07:46 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SScott View Post
Now that is a good question. I have good oil pressure. 40 at idle but do not know how to tell if the sound is only coming from one cylinder.


When I can ever get it all worked out I do plan on race fuel before I go to the track. Maybe I should try some now to see if that is what is up?
As Mr. P-body has said, trying some extra octane will be something well worth doing. What you do not want to do is load the engine until the cause is known. Because if it IS detonation, that can take out the pistons, cylinders and damage the bearings- as I'm sure you know.

Keep us posted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
SScott (09-09-2013)
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 10:47 AM
SScott's Avatar
Eph 4:29-32
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Al
Age: 43
Posts: 19
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 10
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thank you everyone, I will update this as soon as I get my car back together. Life has put this on a back burner. I have some timing tape, knowledge of finding 0 on the balancer, a new set of aluminum heads and have a place close to me that has race gas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 02:33 PM
68NovaSS's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Working with chromed bolts
Last journal entry: New to me T-Bucket
Last photo:
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Nine Mile Falls/Suncrest, WA
Posts: 5,250
Wiki Edits: 9

Thanks: 105
Thanked 133 Times in 124 Posts
If it was only detonating under boost, I would blame it on high c.r.. You realize with 10.1:1 static timing, with only 8 pounds of boost your effective c.r. is over 15.4:1?

You can get away with more static compression in a turbo setup, not with a roots blower, not near as forgiving, even with that small 144.

If you're still pinging or detonating without boost, i.e. belt removed, you have a timing problem as mentioned in other replies.
__________________
Boost adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl...

Midnight Sun Street Rod Association
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2013, 06:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Cassville,MO
Posts: 822
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 21
Thanked 45 Times in 41 Posts
Locked distributor, 10:1, short cam, pump gas that how you make one ping.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
valve guide cutting, dual valve springs ekacpuc Engine 3 08-12-2011 06:39 AM
differnce in valve springs. will flat tappet springs work with a roller cam? hemiguy2009 Engine 1 01-31-2011 03:19 PM
Valve springs Mikeeal Engine 8 08-26-2007 09:00 AM
Can the dual coil valve springs on a BB destroy Valve guide seals Auto-Part Engine 4 11-25-2003 05:23 PM
Valve springs bildo95 Engine 2 04-13-2003 06:10 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.