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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-07-2006, 08:10 PM
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Doc here,

Your hard start Issue when hot, Does it crank fast and just not want to start,

OR is the starter spinning a few revolutions and "stall" or kickback..then spin a few more and kickback again?

Two different Issues..

Doc

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Old 04-07-2006, 09:11 PM
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36 to 40 How in the world do I get there if the distributor has 20 degrees that would be 16 to 20 degrees more but the marker on the harmonic balance only goes to 12 degrees. What do you do to reach this madness with an MSD electronic distributor?
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docvette
Doc here,

Your hard start Issue when hot, Does it crank fast and just not want to start,

OR is the starter spinning a few revolutions and "stall" or kickback..then spin a few more and kickback again?

Two different Issues..

Doc
Hey Doc

No, it cranks like normal when you hit the ignition, it turns but does not turn start. When I release the key and go again it starts. When its hot and I turn it off and immediately start it again it starts no problem. It's only when I've been driving and let it sit for say 5 or 10 minutes thats when It has a hard time starting. after the initial attempt it starts up, could this be a fuel feed issue, maybe to much fuel?
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue67Camaro
Hey Doc

No, it cranks like normal when you hit the ignition, it turns but does not turn start. When I release the key and go again it starts. When its hot and I turn it off and immediately start it again it starts no problem. It's only when I've been driving and let it sit for say 5 or 10 minutes thats when It has a hard time starting. after the initial attempt it starts up, could this be a fuel feed issue, maybe to much fuel?
Doc here,

I can give you a couple of things to try:
  • maladjusted choke..
  • bad or weak primary pump in the Carb
  • Weak Fuel pump
  • PIn hole air leaks in the fuel line
  • Clogged Fuel filter(s)
  • Clogged Fuel tank sock
  • Fuel Vapor locking in the manifold (most likely on hot only issue, install a spacer plate)

You did install a secondary Ignition (if your Ignition/Car) requires it, right? The wire that runs from the "R" terminal on the solenoid to the Coil +..

Did the car have points before or HEI?, if it had points before, you'll need the secondary OR check to see the coil power isn't dropping out while cranking.

Doc
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Old 04-07-2006, 09:45 PM
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richard stewart 3rd

After the car sits for the five to ten minuets does the starter turn slowly & sounds like it's beaning severely overworked?
Rich
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docvette
Doc here,

I can give you a couple of things to try:
  • maladjusted choke..
  • bad or weak primary pump in the Carb
  • Weak Fuel pump
  • PIn hole air leaks in the fuel line
  • Clogged Fuel filter(s)
  • Clogged Fuel tank sock
  • Fuel Vapor locking in the manifold (most likely on hot only issue, install a spacer plate)

You did install a secondary Ignition (if your Ignition/Car) requires it, right? The wire that runs from the "R" terminal on the solenoid to the Coil +..

Did the car have points before or HEI?, if it had points before, you'll need the secondary OR check to see the coil power isn't dropping out while cranking.

Doc

Doc

Brand new Edelbrock 650cfm
New carb
Could be the fuel pump I never checked it but I will
Wouldn't I smell or see fuel if it was leaking, I'll look from tank to pump to carb though
New Filter Just replaced about 30 days ago
Dropped the tank and installed a new float assembly
No spacer plate between the carb and manifold only gasket, will do.
Came with points replaced with MSD and yes sir the red lead is going from the solenoid to the coil, roger that.

Thanks DOC you are helping me a great deal I just do not want to become a pain the the butt.
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Old 04-07-2006, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue67Camaro
Doc

Brand new Edelbrock 650cfm
New carb
Could be the fuel pump I never checked it but I will
Wouldn't I smell or see fuel if it was leaking, I'll look from tank to pump to carb though
New Filter Just replaced about 30 days ago
Dropped the tank and installed a new float assembly
No spacer plate between the carb and manifold only gasket, will do.
Came with points replaced with MSD and yes sir the red lead is going from the solenoid to the coil, roger that.

Thanks DOC you are helping me a great deal I just do not want to become a pain the the butt.

Doc here,

Looks like the only issues you don't have covered is the pump..Check Volume / Pressure on it..

Pin hole leaks won't necessarily smell of raw fuel OR leak fluid ..but they can offset the fuel pressure enough to be a headache...Sounds like you just redid the fuel system, so you were just in there..(last place broken..last place worked on theory) Check your fittings and if not already use a sealer on them, check the line for a tiny suspicious looking rust dot..Check any hoses for tight seal too.

Which leaves the manifold vapor lock..a good culprit on hot start issues..I'd start there first.

Doc
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:33 AM
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Will do DOC I'll go pick up a plate today and put it on. I know I keep saying it but thank you.
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue67Camaro
Hey Doc

No, it cranks like normal when you hit the ignition, it turns but does not turn start. When I release the key and go again it starts. When its hot and I turn it off and immediately start it again it starts no problem. It's only when I've been driving and let it sit for say 5 or 10 minutes thats when It has a hard time starting. after the initial attempt it starts up, could this be a fuel feed issue, maybe to much fuel?
More than likely the heat from the intake is evaporating the fuel in the carb after you shut the engine off and wait the 5-10 minutes. I had the same problem when running an Edelbrock 600 cfm carb and an Edelbrock Performer intake. Fixed this by installing a phenolic spacer (about 3/8 inch thick) between the intake and the carb.

Try pumping the accelerator a couple of times and then try to start the engine with your foot off the accelerator. This will verify the temporary lean condition you seem to be experiencing after the engine has warmed up and trying to re-start.
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Old 04-08-2006, 07:56 AM
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Frisco

Yuppers I've done that and it will start but it takes a few seconds for the engine to come to a full idile it acts like its getting to much fuel sort of like a flooding condition untill it burns that fuel off that I dumped by hitting the pedal. DOC mentioned the spacer so I'm going to pick one up today and see what happens. Like I mentioned to DOC earlier I'm very appriciative for all your help, Thanks. I am doing everything you guys suggest and so far everything is on the money.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue67Camaro
36 to 40 How in the world do I get there if the distributor has 20 degrees that would be 16 to 20 degrees more but the marker on the harmonic balance only goes to 12 degrees. What do you do to reach this madness with an MSD electronic distributor?
There are several ways to do this.

The cheapest and easiest is to buy and install what is called "timing tape" to your harmonic damper. This is a plastic tape with a self adhesive backing that you would install on the outer diameter of your harmonic damper. It is marked off in degrees. Available at Summit and Jeg's if your local auto supply doesn't have it. Around $7-10.

Another method that cost slightly more would be to purchase and install a harmonic damper cover that is engraved with the degree markings. These are available in several colors and also can be purchased from Summit or Jeg's. Around $30.

A third higher cost option is to purchase and install a new engraved in degrees harmonic damper to replace the stock one. Not worth the cost for street use. Around $200.

Another excellent method is to purchase a timing light that has the dial to adjust for the degrees. The advantage to this is that you can use the feature on any vehicle without the need for timing tape or a degreed harmonic damper. Around $60.

For your info: The '28 Ford Pickup that you see in my avatar has a slightly modified Chevy 350 engine. It ran best with the timing set at 18 degrees initial giving that engine a Total Mechanical Timing of 38 degrees. I also found that it ran best using FULL manifold vacuum. The distributor is a stock GM HEI and factory vacuum cannister. Intake is an Edelbrock RPM Air Gap. Carb is a Holley Street Avenger 670cfm. Cam is a Comp Cam (12-212-2) CS 280H-10 with .480 / .480. Heads are AFR 190cc Aluminum with 68cc chambers. 8" Ford rear with 3.80-1 gears. TH350 with B&M TransPak (Street) installed. TCI Saturday Night Special torque converter.
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Old 04-08-2006, 08:38 AM
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I'd test the pump check valve and line leaks before adding the plate....

can be leak down from a hot/dirty/bad check valve in the pump...

a good pump will hold the pressure for (?)5-10 minutes after you turn off the hot motor

a barbed "T" fitting at the carb, some hose and a pressure guage (don't have a low press guage...use what you got for this test... as long as it shows something you can see)

start the motor hot, see how long it takes to lose the press after you turn off the motor,

footnotes:
to be able to read all timing values, buy a Mr Gasket timing tape ($5?) at your local parts store...covers 0 to 60*?...I cheat and photocopy it, tape a copy to the damper with the marks I want highlighted

by testing idle vacuum, compression, octane required, and max best timing you can "deduce" pretty close from the results what is in the motor
"rough" ex:
18hg/600rpm. 150psi=9/1, 87 octane, 36-38*= basic "performer carb and intake and maybe performer level cam"
12-15hg/600rpm, 170psi=10/1, 92 octane, 32-34*= typical "strong street strip" cam/motor build, Edelbrock RPM cam level
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Old 04-08-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue67Camaro
36 to 40 How in the world do I get there if the distributor has 20 degrees that would be 16 to 20 degrees more but the marker on the harmonic balance only goes to 12 degrees. What do you do to reach this madness with an MSD electronic distributor?
Option 1
Mark your balancer at one degree increments from 0 to 40 degrees BTDC

Option 2
Purchase a balancer that has the marks; this is what I do.

Option 3
Purchase a timing light with a advance setting function.


With these options the timing is set at full advance. If you have 20 degrees centrifugal and 20 degrees initial ; the timing is set at the desired total advance with the RPM high enough to bring in all of the centrifugal advance.

Option 1 and 2 will require the balancer to be marked. Option three does not.
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Old 04-08-2006, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisco
...For your info: The '28 Ford Pickup that you see in my avatar has a slightly modified Chevy 350 engine. [u]It ran best with the timing set at 18 degrees initial giving that engine a Total Mechanical Timing of 38 degrees. ....
Frisco, Sorry, I didnít realize you had already answered his question.

My 67 Camaro runs a slightly modified 355 CI SBC with AFR 190 heads. It runs best with 38 degrees total mechanical.
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Old 04-10-2006, 05:59 PM
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DOC, Frisco, Automotive Breath everyone who has helped me with this problem. At present the TT 30* anything above that it will back fire through the carb. Installed a spacer plate and when I did I needed to obviously make some adjustments to the kick-down linkage, yea I know, automatic, sissy. Anyway I did the adjustments took it down the road to see what would happen and I continue to make great improvements. Throttle response is better then it ever has been the car runs at around 180* - 185*. I parked the car for about 15-20 minutes and it cranked right up no lag first try and it turned over. I have not checked fuel pressure yet or the fuel pump I will work on those this weekend if the boss doesn't find any honey dews. I will keep ya'all posted on the progress. Oh yea did a burn out in my garage, wife mad Thank you all for the support.
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