Timing/Water Injection - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2002, 06:57 AM
Mertz's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Reardan, WA
Posts: 665
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Post Timing/Water Injection

I tried timing my 350 with max vacuum and backing it off 1. I was reading about 16 steady at idle and backed it off to 15 and took it out for a test drive and had a very bad knock. I backed it off one more and it ran fine with a very slight knock. I checked it with the timing light and it was 12 BTDC. It was at 14 plus the first time. I had been running at 10 before I started. It seems to run better at 10 so I might put it back. I have always been able to time a car by ear. I usually get the best performance that way then I check it by timing light. In my old age I have relied more on my light and specs.

I installed a very simple water injection system connected to a second ported vacuum on my Qjet. I pulled water through a small hypodermic needle in a vacuum hose and connected it to the windshield washer water bottle. That took out the slight knock. I noticed that it smells like it is burning much cleaner with the water and can tell immediately when I run out. I am going to add a valve to more accurately control flow. I was running about a bottle full in 25 miles so it is getting to much. The goal is to use a gallon per tank of gas.

Since I did the water cleaning and got the Qjet to idle correctly it has been running great. Driving with the water injection has also helped to make it run better. It is now very easy to start and has plenty of power.

All this about Holley vs Edelbrock, I still like the Qjet for performance and economy.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2002, 09:27 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 176
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

Please, excuse my ignorance, but what is the purpose of water injection? Can someone explain this? Thanks!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2002, 09:41 AM
Mertz's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Reardan, WA
Posts: 665
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Post

For me it more of an experiment than anything else. I have always tried to get the best performance and gas milage out of an engine and I thought this might work. It is supposed to let you increase timing thus increasing performance by controlling the rate of detonation. BTW I never use anything but 87 octane pump gas in any of my vehicles including the 428 in the Pontiac and never have a pinging problem. It all in the timing.

A side benefit, although hotly contested on this site, is the cleaning aspect of the water to eliminate carbon.

I once tried to preheat the fuel in my 260z to try to increase atomization. I thought if I got it closer to the temp at which it evaporates it would burn better and thus increase my gas milage. Boy was I wrong!!!!! It ran terrible. I problably should have done the opposite and put in a cool can and cooled the fuel first. (An old hotrodder's trick I'm not sure anyone uses any more.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2002, 01:37 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 4,905
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 73 Times in 61 Posts
Post

Let me try to clarify my experiences with water injection. I have tried water injection with varying degrees of success on Ford engines since the early 80's, almost without exception I have been able to run more timing and more compression with water than without. Engine temps of course are lower and except for the increased exhaust system corrosion has been a win-win modification.....except......

Here are the problems as I have seen them.
  • Efficient water injection is very dependant on droplet size and the only way to do it properly is by pressurized injection.
  • Using vacuum to injest the water leads to very large droplets and likely you would see a drop in power on the dyno.
  • Water acts as a moderator during the combustion process and actually slows it down and prevents dangerous pressure spikes that cause detonation. This is both good and bad because the reason for the injection is to reduce detonation from advanced timing but the cure causes the engine to require more timing to compensate, reducing pressure spikes is good but does reduce power somewhat.
  • Water injected with sub micron particle size droplets holds the promise of possible power increases due to the instantaneous expansion of water to steam during combustion, water turning to steam expands 100 times which could add power.
  • The problem of course is injecting water in sufficient quantities to work properly and also make the injection load dependant. Simple vacuum port injection lacks the ability to increase flow as rpm rises which could lead to detonation if the timing was advanced to take advantage of the water moderation.
  • The volume of water necessary to be useful at full power is quite substancial, something like 150ml per litre of fuel is required under heavy load. This means you would need a tank one quarter the size of your gas tank to eliminate running out of water under full throttle conditions.
  • The addition of water to an engine has other undesirable consequences such as increased sludge formation, erosion and corrosion of components in the valve train. Boat engines come equipped with stainless valves for good reason.

You will probably find a power reduction on the dyno with your current setup, although it may seem to run smoother you will be down on power. You don't get something for nothing and designing a water injection system that actually adds power is complicated and would probably be best done with a computer controlled high pressure injection system.

Here are some links that might be of some interest to those interested in pursuing water injection further.

<a href="http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/epag/epag_reciprocating.html" target="_blank">http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/epag/epag_reciprocating.html</a>

<a href="http://65.105.56.185/master21/category211-1.html" target="_blank">http://65.105.56.185/master21/category211-1.html</a>

<a href="http://www.nasatech.com/techsearch/tow/" target="_blank">http://www.nasatech.com/techsearch/tow/</a>

<a href="http://www.aquamist.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.aquamist.co.uk/</a>

Just for fun here is a great site for those of us who love to dabble in government conspiracy's and big business cover-ups, they just happen to be talking about water injection too! :p <a href="http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/internal_20combustion_20steam_20engine" target="_blank">Watch your back, the satellites are recording our conversation as we speak!</a>
__________________
Outlawed tunes from outlawed pipes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2002, 02:09 PM
Mertz's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Reardan, WA
Posts: 665
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Post

So if I install a gas turbine engine and put in a lot of water I could see a 200% increase in power.

Thanks for the insite on water injection. I do seem to get a cleaner burn but it does lack some of the power it had before. This I thought was due to a slight timing change I made.

If you want to see a really bad system of water injection check this out. http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...earth/me3.html I believe it would create a very large vacuum leak.

Since I have 2 ported vacuums on the Qjet should I hook up the second one directly to the EGR valve or leave it disconnected?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2002, 08:47 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 4,905
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 73 Times in 61 Posts
Post

EGR dilution reduces combustion chamber temps and acts like a moderator much the same as water, I would leave it disconnected for more power.
__________________
Outlawed tunes from outlawed pipes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2002, 07:13 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 176
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Post

Thanks for the clarification!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2002, 07:31 AM
Mertz's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Reardan, WA
Posts: 665
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Post

I'm not trying to cause any trouble here but I just talked to a guy who has a 327 rated at about 400 hp that couldn't get it to stop pinging until he added water injection. It was setup to create a mist in the water bottle then pull it through the carb at a ported vacuum. Kind of like the Mother Earth news setup on the link I sent. He said it worked fine and eliminated the pinging and did not have to use octane booster where he did before.

Still seems to me that this would create a vacuum leak similar to leaving the port uncaped.

It didn't use to much water either since it was pulling a mist instead of droplets. He added methonal to the water. This probalby helped with the misting as well as combustion.

4 Jaw I will disconnect the EGR valve. But if I run it, will it make the engine run cooler or just rob power? Thanks for your insite.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.