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Old 10-23-2005, 12:37 PM
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Tip of the day

When preparing to clear you project, take the extra time and re tape the windows etc. with fresh paper... You just tape right over the existing paper and tape... This will keep you from blowing primer/epoxy/base dust up onto the clear as you make your passes on the roof, hood and trunk area... I wish I had ever thought of this before, Barry learned me on this one... I have always had major issues with fall out on my top panels... With fresh paper for the clear I did not have it in my top coats this time around..

BTW if you use 36" roll it will only take about 10 minutes per side and per front and back window.... I pull a piece of paper long enough to cover however many windows I have one one side... tack it up with tape and cut out the pattern with a razor blade, then run my tape all around the edges... Very fast and easy to do.. Here is a pic of what I am talking about.. Notice I have already cut the first window out here

Matthew
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Old 10-23-2005, 01:40 PM
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I have to disagree with remasking after the base, I don't see a reason for that at all. After primer, sure, every single time. But after base, there really should be no need for it.

I know one thing that I have noticed is that some people end their pass RIGHT AT the end of the panel at the edge of the paper. This can create some "dust" if you do it every coat. Then that dust could creep back to the clear when you clear maybe. But if you run your color over onto the paper a good distance of say a foot or so, that shouldn't be problem. This insures a much better constant film build on your panel as well.

Brian
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Old 10-23-2005, 02:35 PM
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Sometimes if i have some dry overspray that has built up on masking paper I will spray clear on it first to kind of stick the trash to the paper. Then proceed with clearing.
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Old 10-23-2005, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I know one thing that I have noticed is that some people end their pass RIGHT AT the end of the panel at the edge of the paper. This can create some "dust" if you do it every coat. Then that dust could creep back to the clear when you clear maybe. But if you run your color over onto the paper a good distance of say a foot or so, that shouldn't be problem. This insures a much better constant film build on your panel as well.

Brian
We will just have to agree to disagree here then, there is no way I am going to spray a foot down a front windshield and a foot down a back glass to keep the "dust" down... I always have an overlap of several inches but not a foot by a long shot...

I do leave the paper on from primer to clear, perhaps that has been my enemy.. I cant remember masking a car after primer ever.. ( been a long time if I did)... and I have never had as much trash in the topcoat as I have this year either... Shoot I even wear painters coveralls, gloves etc.. when years ago, I would wear a t-shirt and shorts....

So from my standpoint it has to be the paper because I moved to a new location, with walls freshly painted white, and the floor moped before I shot clear...

Brian why do you say primer yes every time and not base?? What if someone was using epoxy only, it is a primer after all, and then shooting there base 60 minutes after?? or shooting base the next day?? Do you say primer because of all the talc in it?? Trying to learn more here

Matthew
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Old 10-23-2005, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
I have to disagree with remasking after the base, I don't see a reason for that at all. After primer, sure, every single time. But after base, there really should be no need for it.

Brian
You got it back wards. Base will not remelt primer as its an ISO mated product.
Base will be melted with the first coat of clear and than any air movement on the second coat is going to blow the particles off the paper on the hood.
May not be important with production work, but with good work more of these particles will blow off with each additional coat of clear.
I personally don't need it or want it.

Right wrong or indifferent, we have $1,000 in materials and sandpapers to do a job and I'm not going to scrimp on $2 extra to re-mask between the primer and base and the base and clear.

Dirt comes from the paper especially green paper more than any other place.
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:00 PM
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Matthew, epoxy is (or can be used as) a "primer/sealer". So in the case of "sealing" a car prior to paint, be it an epoxy or a urethane, no, I would not remask. The reason I say replace it after primer, is you are usually sanding the primer producing dust. Plus and this is a big one, primer IS drier as applied and does form dust at the end of the pass. I am not going to prime anymore than where it is needed as my suggestion with painting out onto the paper. Also the primer many times is applied in a few applications with sanding in between, you are building up a lot on the paper. That then can crack and come off. My point is, after prepairing the car for paint, just tape it up and paint it, clear and all.

When a car goes in the booth to paint it should be there as "virgin" as possible. Nice clean everything, I don't know how to explain it. Nice and fresh paper and the nice sanded surface of the panels to be painted should be all you see. Not primer overspray covered paper, you are just begging for trouble. The next time you paint think about what I said on painting further out onto the paper. If you are looking at this it may sound different to you. You can back off a little as you go out onto the paper, that is fine, you really aren't wasting much more paint to speak of.
Think of it this way, the perfect paint application is a film of paint laying on the car like you applied a big decal. The film thickness will be flawlessly perfect anywhere you measure it on the car. So, if you stop your pass just off the edge of the roof for instance, there is a GOOD chance the edge of that roof is going to have more material because you are slowing down as you come to a stop to change direction. If you run it out onto the paper a little more you keep a constant pace over the roof to the very end.

I see this all the time at work, the guys will paint each panel stopping the gun at the very end of every panel. Well, the seam between the door and fender as an example will get four times the paint and there is always a build up of paint and clear on the edge, sometimes even a run down the edge. All it takes is "moving the dry spot" around to stop this.

Barry, honesty? A super nice job that is more than a "production" job isn't going to have ANY paper on it anyway!

I hardly use any paper at all to be perfectly honest with you. I bag a car and there is NO paper showing, only the panels being painted. If the windows need to be masked, then paper is used, but it is white "urethane" paper.

But if it is a "show job" then there wouldn't be any windows in the car, or anything else.

Green paper is for primer masking, I wouldn't dream of using it while painting.
I don't understand what you are saying about "particles blowing off" the paper. If the paint has stuck to the paper and you tack it off prior to painting, what is going to blow off? If some how the clear effects it, isn't that going to happen on the painted surfaces as well? It sounds like the paint would be blowing off the door when you paint the fender???

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 10-23-2005 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:10 PM
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Don't twist my statement around.
Do you really think base sticks to paper as well as a door.

This is just argumentative for no reason.
No one is telling you to do it.
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Old 10-23-2005, 06:13 PM
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I'm sorry, I didn't think we all had to agree with the tips, I'll stop now.

Your right I could have said nothing, what does it hurt to mask again, certainly other than the time or cost of paper, it shouldn't "Hurt" anything. Other than the issue of marking the base or something like that, it is kinda vulnerable without clear on it. Other than that, no big deal, mask again. Sorry I brought up another side.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 10-23-2005 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 10-23-2005, 10:30 PM
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Bondoking, I always unmask and clean after the primer stage, then remask with Norton blue plastic masking film and the basecoat sticks to that well without the fuzzies you get off of the green paper. The plastic is very economical. 3M makes some good masking plastic also but I prefer the blue Norton stuff. It goes a long way.
I agree on the tip- remask after your primer, and also after basecoat if you're using the uncoated masking papers.

Paint and primer tends to make the fibers on the masking paper stand up then break off and I think that's why Barry made the remask suggestion to avoid contaminating your clear with these fibers.
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Old 10-24-2005, 06:37 AM
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i use the norton plastic too...just dont mess up and put the wrong side facing out. it says "spray this side" for a reason. nothing sticks to the other side and the base, primer or clear blows right off and gets into the finish when spraying.
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Old 10-24-2005, 08:24 AM
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Having put regular plastic in the engine compartment to mask things off (Disaster), I found out quite a few tips regarding masking and masking papers.

You guys (Barry and Brian), brought out points from each other (AND OTHERS) that have JUST woke me up to a series of calamadies I can now avoid.

I didn't know there was a problem with Green Paper and base coat fuzzies
I found out the hard way about re-spraying with plastic- (Snow storm!!!)


Brian,
I have to disagree about using NO mask for a Quality job. Skirting, wheel wells, marker lights, tail lights, trunk opening, under hood......
OK, I'm being a jerk.....
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Old 10-24-2005, 09:45 AM
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It's funny how things have changed. When I first started in this business it was common to mask off door handles and the like. On a year old car even, belt moldings, mirrors, they would be masked.

Today EVERY part gets removed off a blend panel as well as the panel being painted where I work. This is a production shop doing about 125 cars a month with the average ticket being about $2100. I don't care if it is a ten year old car with 150,000 miles on it, EVERY SINGLE componant is removed off EVERY SINGLE Panel being painted. All glue on mouldings are replaced, NOT retaped. All handles are removed, rivet on, bolt on, what ever. ALL belt mouldings are removed, even if a window has to be removed to do it. ALL urethaned in windows get cut out. ALL bumpers get removed if they fit up against the panel being painted. ALL lights get removed. ALL emblems are removed and replaced if glue on. ALL rocker mouldings are removed if they fit up against a blend or paint panel. ALL beds are removed from trucks if the cab corner is being painted. ALL roof mouldings get removed if a quarter is being painted. ALL gas doors, rivet on, bolt on, get removed. ALL antennas get removed. Most all sun roofs get removed.

There are NO open blends. ALL panels get painted or cleared complete. If there is no breaking point on a C pillar, the roof and other quarter get painted.

There are super rare instances when this doesn't happen but 99.9% of the cars that go thru get this treatment.

Heck, I did about a 90 Ford pickup the other day where a door was painted. I removed the vent window instead of taping the rubber as I would have back in my shop 10 years ago.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 10-24-2005 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 10-24-2005, 09:53 AM
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Wow Brian, and my wife thinks I get carried away every time I take
a door apart to get the handles off. I do take off as much as possible,
And to think that some say "they don't do it like they used too"
Nice to know that some do it better.
My hat's off to you.
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Old 10-24-2005, 11:05 PM
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I agree with Brian, most all of the better collision shops in my area remove all of the components before paint. With collision work the Insurance companies usually don't have a problem paying for needed operations to make sure the repairs are of quality. Usually the only exceptions are if the vehicle is older and these R&I operations may make the car a total loss then usually the shop looks at just masking what they can and getting the job in and out the door and the customer back on the road. I've even seen painters mask emblems back when you needed to remove the fender in order to R&I the emblem--the good old days, yeah right.

All the R&I operations needed to to a good quality job need to be considered when you're estimating a job, they add up to some major time. Headlights, bumpers, glass, emblems, side mouldings, handles, locks, glass runs, driprails, wipers, squirters, wheel opening mouldings, belt mouldings, rocker mouldings, spoilers, scoops, flares, side markers, cowl vent panel, grille, mirrors.....
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Old 10-25-2005, 04:49 AM
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I remember, when I started, masking "Impala" fender emblems. It would take an hour or more to do them. We never took anything off just for painting. Many times we would mask with newspaper. Whe I was an insurance adjuster, back in about 1997, people started wanting to R&I stuff for paint. Man the insurance companies in this area were going nuts about the costs. There were alot of cars that would "total" with the added costs. The problem with alot of that was that the shops would require it on the estimates, but then not do it. The last shop that I worked at, we replaced glue on emblems and moldings. The glue in glass was not removed in most cases. The shop I am at right now, we have to reglue most moldings and emblems, but I am working on them about that. It is a brand new shop with new management and they have alot to learn. The time lost on reglueing the stuff is not worth it. The thing that gets me about it is that the materials for masking has improved so much in the years. Alot of the stuff that we remove could be masked alot easier than it could have in the past. I have also seen several times that there has been a slip up when installing the stuff that was removed. Then the vehicle has had to go back to the paint shop to be repaired. Several times the stuff that "HAD to be removed" originally, was left on for the repairs.

The body techs use the green paper when working on the car and priming. The paint shop immediatly removes the masking that we do when they get the car. They sand and prep the car, including wet sanding and blowing it off with air, and mask it with the white paper. On rare occasions, they will bag a car with that plastic. In most cases, they use white paper and "spray mask" on the rest of the car.

Every car that comes in the shop for repairs, has spray mask put on it before repairs start.

Aaron
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